Why do you stick around?

[enigma]

Three years ago, all of us wannabees (well most of us) continued in our career, despite poverty wages and sorry work rules, because we had our eyes on the prize called a major airline position with a seven million dollar retirement and twenty grand a month to tide us over until we reached 60. Now the legacy carriers are bleeding like a stuck hog, and the value of a mainline career is falling like sales of DixieChicks albums. So why do ya'll stick it out?

Personally, I am able to make a pretty good wage for a working man, better than any position I can acquire in any other field,( but well below the wage earned by a SWA pilot), so I stick around.

I can understand why someone in my position, or higher, would continue the career; however I'm not sure I would stick it out if I was sitting right seat at Eagle/ASA/Mesa/etc/etc.

If you are currently a <$20K/year pilot with little hope for any movement for the next four years, what gives you the encouragement to stick it out?

Do you subscribe to the theory that the majors will be back because they always have before?

Do you stick it out because you fly for the feeling, not for money?

Maybe you just don't know how to do anything else

Are you waiting for the Vietnam era pilots to retire?

And on a slightly different subject: Do you expect that mainline wages will ever return to the levels reached before nine-eleven?

regards,
8N

 

[Yudso]

Any pro-pilot worth his salt will tell you that a career in aviation is not about the money. You do what you love. For us it is flying. If we have to eat raman noodles three times a day and live out a freaking suit case, then so be it. As for Mainline salaries returning to what they were, that all depends on the unions and what they are willing got do to get those back up. Since they have little or no leverage against the company it could be a while before that happens.

 

[Cardinal]

Do you subscribe to the theory that the majors will be back because they always have before?

Yes. It might take a very long time, but without a Roman Empire-like fall of the United States, major airlines, perhaps with different names, will return to glory.

Do you stick it out because you fly for the feeling, not for money?

Yes and no. I fly because I do in fact love it. But I can readily accomplish that with a Cessna 140, just not in quite as complex a fashion. I am in it for the dough, but if I were really in it for the money, well I wouldn't be in aviation. A more predictable and sizable payout could be found in other industries if I took my dedication elsewhere.

Maybe you just don't know how to do anything else

That's true. I have never held a job outside aviation. I do have capacity for learning, however. I could change my life course right now, I have very few commitments, but I have not yet found any vocation that draws me quite like this one.

Are you waiting for the Vietnam era pilots to retire?

Sure. By 2010 they'll be out the door. But it doesn't change much, previous generations were just as surely waiting for the WWII guys to retire.

And on a slightly different subject: Do you expect that mainline wages will ever return to the levels reached before nine-eleven?

Absolutely. When one takes a step back, 9/11 is a really dumb excuse for the slow implosion of an industry. If 3M had a batch of Scotch tape that didn't stick would their engineers leave the profession forever? Would 3M close their doors? Recessions pass and memories fade. SJs will be used where they make sense. That fact has nothing to do with what the 777 guy makes per hour.

Basically an optimistic viewpoint, the only variable is time.

 

[avbug]

I'm alone, undeducated, and aside from extra jobs doing everything from working in a rubber stamp factory to tending roses in a greenhouse, it's all I've done since I was a kid.

What else am I going to do? They won't let me in civilized places, like Krispy Kreme franchises, and I can't seem to get a break at McDonalds. It's not my fault they set their standards so high.

I applied as a male stripper, but they said that there were too many comedy acts booked already.

 

[Speedtree]

It is because guys and gals are willing to eat Ramen noodles and live out of a suitcase hand-to-mouth that the unions don't have as much power as they could. Yes this is not the only problem but I for one would like to be able to support my family and fly at the same time.

The fate of airline salaries is tied to the will of the traveling public. If the economy picks up and people are no longer afraid to fly to Asia, etc. then we should see a return to better times. SWA is not the answer to the worlds flying needs. The majors have a place too.

 

[SDF2BUF2MCO]

Good question enigma. I ask myself this all the time. Especially the last few months. However, I'm coming from the ground and not the air.
My job is a M-F gig that pays good enough where Momma can stay at home with the kids (for the last 18 years anyway). I wish I could say I like my job but I tolerate it at best. I do a good job because it is the right thing to do but I find minimal pleasure in it. Too far along in the career money and schedule wise to want to make any changes. Most occupations are rather boring. Realize flying isn't always exciting either but you can't beat the view. Plus it satisfies the ego when you do it well.
Guess for the "younger" folks try to find something you enjoy that's legal and moral (sorry, know that may take some of the fun out of it) and hopefully the money and schedule will be there. Don't let companies pimp off your desire to fly by allowing yourself to be subject to Chinese wages.

 

[bobbysamd]

Sticking around

I was a career changer in the late '80s. Aside from the fact that I just wanted to be paid adequately so I would be halfway comfortable, I didn't get into full-time flying for the money. I never even thought about the money. I determined that someone like me could be a professional pilot, and actually be paid for something that heretofore was a great pastime - flying airplanes. Someone once told me that if you love what you're doing for work, then every day is a vacation.

I had one role "model." He was a friend with whom I grew up. Our common ground was airplanes. We drifted apart, but I had learned that he had earned his ratings. When we got together, I learned that he was Captain for a small commuter in Colorado. He was making about $25K in 1987, which was decent commuter pay for the times, and more than I was making in radio. He had plenty of time off. He seemed very satisfied with what he was doing. He was making more money than I was making. I thought that if he could do it, I could do it. It all sounded good to me. That and other reasons were my motivation.

Finally, I think that a few elite jobs will remain, but the bulk of airline flying won't pay as well as it did five years ago. But it will still be good pay - far better than for many people. Retirement benies may not be as lush - 401-K and maybe lifetime health may be all. Flying for the majors will still be a decent job.

 

[citdrver]

I stick around for many reasons. Flying is all I know and has been my drive, my desire and my goals since I was a young child. I have worked very hard to attain my postion and made many sacrifices To get here amd maintain my life here. My job isnt bad, isnt great but good enough for now. What comes later? I havent a clue! Tyhe airlines will be smaller in size and pay. Yes it wil be great job, just less of them. I believe those guys in the right seat of the regionals are in a good place. Once the economy and flying public decide to back to work, the regional guys will see the long term growth.

As far as doing something else, it is either flying airplanes or fixing airplanes. I would always stay involved in aviation somehow. I am a corporate guy, so I am not as well versed in much of this stuff as you airline types. What I do know, with the benefit of age is that doing whatever it takes for a flying job such as eating Raman noodles, taking substandard pay, flying unsafe aircraft or conditions, and flying with undue pressure to fly isnt worth it! The scope and breadth of a pilot's resonsibilty is too large to be undermined by some employers. We pilots have worked too hard to sell ourselves short. That goes for the guys flying Learjets to the new guys at a CFI or frieght job. When I was young, I didnt care about money, just flying and paying for it. Now ,Im 31 a wife and a mortagage and know all too well that it isnt worth it to fly for some companies, The regional guys I undertsand, the first year or two blows then there is a pay off when you up grade. But many out there think they are offering you the world to fly right seat of thier Citation for 15-20K a year. I couyld do better than that doing many different things outside of flying.

Im sorry. I have ranted!

Peace and Hair Grease

 

[FurloughedAgain]

I stick it out because my wife lets me. )

7 Companies
8 Airplanes
3 Furloughs
1 Bankruptcy

I still love every minute of it.

Gear up, Clear Right, I'll take the chicken.

 

[typhoonpilot]

It doesn't matter how many ups and downs there are, it is still a great job. I tend to look at the bright side of things. The industry forces those willing to take some career risks that can turn out to be very adventurous. It also helps to create some great friendships.

Typhoonpilot

 

[Typhoon1244]

...falling like sales of DixieChicks albums.

Actually, their sales are still pretty good in most parts of the country. Americans...

Maybe you just don't know how to do anything else...

That's me. My formal education is in cartography...I just needed to have a degree to get hired by an airline.

Do you expect that mainline wages will ever return to the levels reached before nine-eleven?

No. I think the days of the $200K+ per year captain are over.

 

[FurloughedAgain]

Do you subscribe to the theory that the majors will be back because they always have before?

As the industry matures deregulation will continue to have an impact on the so-called "Legacy" carriers. Some of the major carriers will survive, some will fail. The only thing we know for certain is that SWA, Jetblue, and AirTran simply dont have the capacity to take over all of the flying in the United States. There will always be a market for the major network carrier who can provide service from Podunk, Ohio via a Beech 1900 to a hub and then on to London.

Do you stick it out because you fly for the feeling, not for money?

Anyone who still does this for the money is mildly retarded and shouldnt be trusted with matches or sharp objects.

Are you waiting for the Vietnam era pilots to retire?

Didnt you hear the ALPA motto? "I got mine, $crew you!" These guys are trying to get the retirement age raised a further 5 years.

Do you expect that mainline wages will ever return to the levels reached before nine-eleven?

Not a chance. Pilots salaries have stayed relatively static throughout the 1980s. Post deregulation they have simply not kept up with the increase in cost of living. The spending power of a major airline pilot today is not what it was 20 years ago. Furthermore, as more and more block hours are transferred to so-called "regional" operations, fewer jobs would be available at the majors. While the DC9-10, Bac 1-11, F28, BAE146 etc. were all mainline aircraft with their associated payscales in the past -- those days are gone. (not saying its good or bad or right or wrong, just making the point).

In the hiring boom of the late 90s I read somewhere that 6 of every 100 career pilots made it to the majors. What do you think that percentage would look like today? Chances are, it is a heck of a lot worse. We should negotiate contracts at the "regionals" that reflect the reality that these may be career positions -- i'm not saying outlandish salaries, but rather fair salaries with benefits and retirement that reflect our worth as a group.

 

[logolight]

I will stick around because like the others, I do it for the love of the game. I've worked in an office with no windows and even worked with kids at one point. But I always wanted to fly.

As for taking concessions, as long as it's liveable and doesn't insult my inteligence, I will vote for longevity. If I vote no, I'm out of a job with no definite possibility of ever making good money. Otherwise, I will vote to sacrifise now and possibly be able to make good money later.

Like everyone here, I've spent a lot of money, time, and energy to get this far and I'm not about to walk away from it yet.


__________________________________________________

Follow me and I shal make you pilots of men.

 

[bigD]

I'm doing it for the chicks.

Still waiting, though.

 

[enigma]

Re: Re: Why do you stick around?

Actually, their sales are still pretty good in most parts of the country. Americans...

I shouldn't make uninformed statements, I guess. Here in TX, they don't even get played on the stations I sometimes listen to. But, I admit I spend more time listening to Rush/Hannity/O'Reilly/Hamblin than I do listening to country music. Unless I happen across a Faith Hill video, at which point the channel surfing stops.
If Faith ever pulls a Natalie, I'll be broken hearted.

I too think that the days of the over $200K pilot will be a long time returning. I guess that there will be a very small percentage at the top of the seniority lists flying whales over the ocean that could pull down $300K for nine days per month, but most of the rest will be fighting to earn much over $100K.

As long as there remains an adequate supply of pilots willing to do it for the love of it, wages be danged, then the rest of us will continue to earn less and less.

regards,
8N

 

[Iced_up]

If I vote no, I'm out of a job with no definite possibility of ever making good money. Otherwise, I will vote to sacrifise now and possibly be able to make good money later.

It's this mentality that has caused so much pain for all of us. Wake up and smell the coffee before you burn it. Sometimes saying NO is the right thing to do. Not only for yourself but everyone out here trying to make a career in the aviation world. By voting yes to concessions, think about the possible damage you are doing not only to yourself but others. If too many of you keep saying YES then it will make my decision even easier of not to walk away from this industry but to run away.

Regardless of the love that we all have for flying, we need to be treated like professionals and paid accordingly. You are taking away food from families that have worked extremely hard only to be taken away by someone who will do the same job for crappy pay.

Someone needs to start a Pilots Annonymous organization for these pilots who will whore themselves out and be treated like the bottom feeders that they are.

 

[Sphincter Boy]

I love flying because it has been my dream since I was 5 years old and riding in the back of a Piper Archer as my dad was taking flying lessons. Best office window in the world. I don't care what anyone says otherwise.

 

[wmudriver]

boob avatar

What happened to that boob avatar and where did you find that?