Why do some people fly 747 patterns

[timeoff]

So, it would be easier to teach students to use half a county to turn an airplane, than it would be to teach them to not "skid turn" an airplane?

Negative. If (and when) I am able to teach students in the future, obviously the objective is a square and close pattern with coordinated turns. The wide pattern I was refering to is typically flown by weekend guys who only see an instructor every two years. They don't care what other pilots think, just as long as they feel comfortable (I have flown with a guy like this). There is no way to change their bad habits until BFR time comes around, and even then you only get an hour or so in the plane with them.

 

[Jafar]

During a checkout at a local FBO a few months ago I had a CFI tell me my pattern was "uncomfortably tight." The airport is right in the middle of a populous area, and my thinking was I wanted to know I could put it down on the runway from just about any point in the pattern if I had to. For the remainder of the ride I kicked it out to where he was "comfortable." I tend to fly a tight pattern, but that's how I was taught. I think it all comes down to how one learns. If private pilots are flying huge patterns, its because someone taught them to.

 

[NuGuy]

Heyas,

Back in the early Cretaceous when I learned to fly, it was standard to fly a pattern where if you lost your engine, you could still make the field. Since I learned at a place where it was surrounded on one side with DENSE urban development, and on 3 sides with some of the nastiest, muddiest water this side of Bangladesh, everyone had a vested interest in doing so.

Somewhere along the line, the FAA decided that too many pilots were trying to fly patterns too tight, and some number cruncher figured out that there were more fatalities/injuries in stall-spin accidents in the pattern than people losing engines in the pattern, so the FAA changed their "guidance" sometime in the 1990s.

From a pilot perspective, I agree. Keep it in where you can make the field and reducing the size of the pattern means less time in the pattern, which also means less chance of a mid-air or other problem.

On the other hand, if Joe Cessner and Polly Pretty Pants Piper can't manage their airspeed properly in the pattern, maybe its best.

Some take it pretty far, though. I flew a bit out of Homestead (X51), and the local CFIs fly patterns for 9 so far out that there is NO way that they'd hit dry land if they lost one. They'd be battlin' the gators out in the swamp. I swear they fly out for a 3 mile final, and they don't start descending until their turn final.

Nu

 

[VNugget]

Heyas,


Some take it pretty far, though. I flew a bit out of Homestead (X51), and the local CFIs fly patterns for 9 so far out that there is NO way that they'd hit dry land if they lost one. They'd be battlin' the gators out in the swamp. I swear they fly out for a 3 mile final, and they don't start descending until their turn final.

Nu

Sometimes I bitch when I get stuck behind the B52 wannabes, but man... looks like it can get much worse.

 

[Catbert]

...Stall speed doubles with bank angle if you're pitching to maintain altitude...

Stall speed increases as the square root of the load factor. Load factor increases as 1/(cos(bank angle)).

For example: a 60 degree bank gives a load factor of 2. The square root of that is about 1.4. Therefore your stall speed increases by a factor of 1.4.

 

[fastback]

Stall speed increases as the square root of the load factor. Load factor increases as 1/(cos(bank angle)).

For example: a 60 degree bank gives a load factor of 2. The square root of that is about 1.4. Therefore your stall speed increases by a factor of 1.4.

So stall speed would go up by 1.4 times in a level, unaccelerated turn, ya? It wouldn't go up so much if descending, I think. If the airplane is trimmed up for your approach speed and you roll in 60 deg bank, the nose will drop, leaving a decent stall margin.

FN FAL, thanks for changing your avatar! Very nice.

 

[FN FAL]

Stall speed increases as the square root of the load factor. Load factor increases as 1/(cos(bank angle)).

For example: a 60 degree bank gives a load factor of 2. The square root of that is about 1.4. Therefore your stall speed increases by a factor of 1.4.

That's only if you are trying to maintain altitude by pitching for it. Thank you for playing, please come again.

 

[Catbert]

So stall speed would go up by 1.4 times in a level, unaccelerated turn, ya? It wouldn't go up so much if descending, I think. If the airplane is trimmed up for your approach speed and you roll in 60 deg bank, the nose will drop, leaving a decent stall margin.

Correct.

All other factors being equal, if the plane stays at 1g the stall speed remains the same.

 

[Catbert]

That's only if you are trying to maintain altitude by pitching for it. Thank you for playing, please come again.

I'm pretty sure that's what you implied here (bold is mine):

Stall speed doubles with bank angle if you're pitching to maintain altitude...

And I don't know what you mean by 'doubles with bank angle'.

 

[Flyerjosh]

Odds are that those wide patterns are being flown by pilots like me that are trying to regain proficiency in "little" planes! Hard to break the habit after flying bigger/faster stuff for so long.

 

[skipper1]

We all know...

those wide patterns are standard training procedures at Riddle!!!

 

[Immelman]

My (strong) opinion on pattern work (in spam cans & rag wings): Crosswind leg should be just long enough to roll wings level and check for traffic. Pull power to idle abeam midfield glide it all the way to landing, and keep all turns 30 degrees bank.... no less!

 

[FN FAL]

And I don't know what you mean by 'doubles with bank angle'.

I have doubles when someone banks the plane too much and pulls the yoke into their chest...don't you?

 

[frog_flyer]

Crosswind leg should be just long enough to roll wings level and check for traffic.

agree.

Pull power to idle abeam midfield glide it all the way to landing

disagree. pull it when you beam the numbers, turn xwind when rwy is 45 degree angle. you cant screw it up unless you're foreign.

edit.. guess it varies by rwy length though eh?

 

[VNugget]

So stall speed would go up by 1.4 times in a level, unaccelerated turn, ya? It wouldn't go up so much if descending, I think. If the airplane is trimmed up for your approach speed and you roll in 60 deg bank, the nose will drop, leaving a decent stall margin.

FN FAL, thanks for changing your avatar! Very nice.

What's an unaccelerated turn?