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Who wins Great Fare War of '05-'06

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FlyBoeingJets

YES, that's NICE
Joined
Mar 20, 2003
Posts
1,802
With Southwest's 92+ net increase in aircraft by late '06 and an emphasis on the East, Jetblue's big purchase of EMB 190's, and Airtran's purchase of 50-100 737-700/800s who will profit and who will suffer? Song is in this fight too...


I see US Airways reentering Bankruptcy and Delta losing market share. US Airways might survive and Delta will continue to change their business plan. More Song and less domestic mainline.

Most importantly, I think ATA will get financially stronger and will continue to thrive. I doubt anyone will undercut ATA unless they want to report a loss.


Also,

What will AA, AWA, United, Frontier, Alaska, NWA, or Continental be doing?

I think AA and NWA are getting ready to enter the fight too. I don't currently have faith that United will be able to hold much domestic market share. Don't know about the others
 
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Just wondering if the boys from the Harvard School of Business sit around and post on their boards on how to fly airplanes.;)
 
Flying Freddie,

Good point.

However, I do think that research canl help those in the market for a new job. IMHO, One should shoot for the best company with the best chance for longevity, not necessarily the highest paycheck.
 
Flying Freddie said:
Just wondering if the boys from the Harvard School of Business sit around and post on their boards on how to fly airplanes.;)


Flying Freddie,

Don't shortchange yourself, some of those B school folks are rich kids just spending their inheritance. I refuse to believe that we are incapable of figuring out some of these issues.

Respectfully,

FBJ
 
HEY,

I was a B School guy!!!! One of the best papers I did was on SWA kicking everyone's ass! It'll be submitted with my SWA application in 5 years or so:D

Actually don't remember too many rich kids at the school I went to but lots of folks making 100k plus now!

I like your general assessment but I don't think we'll see US Airways around more than 10 years or so without some more restructuring. As long as their costs are higher than SWA, Airtran, and JBlue, their cooked!


Mr. I.
 
U.S. Air Travel Forecast to Grow in 2004
Thursday March 25, 6:08 pm ET
By John Crawley


WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Passenger traffic aboard struggling network U.S. airlines is expected to grow this year for the first time since 2000, according to government data released on Thursday.
The projection was included in the Federal Aviation Administration's annual industry forecast that estimated growth in 2004 of more than 4 percent to 686 million passengers, for all flights aboard U.S. carriers. This includes the biggest airlines and their regional affiliates as well as low-cost carriers.

The agency's economic and other industry financial experts also expect that by 2005, the number of passengers on flights aboard U.S. airlines will reach levels not seen since before the 2001 hijack attacks.

But Transportation Secretary Norman Mineta noted in a speech to aviation and government officials that the commercial industry remains in sharp transition, which was accelerated by the attacks on New York and Washington.

"The changes are very clear and very profound," Mineta said. "Consumers are driving the changes and that's healthy."

The primary shift has been the strong growth and popularity of low-cost carriers. These companies now command more than 25 percent of the market and have forced the biggest airlines, whose business has slid in the past three years, to overhaul their competitive strategies to remain viable.

The biggest airlines have turned over most of their short-haul services to their regional partners to save money. And others, like bankrupt United Airlines (OTC BB:UALAQ.OB - News) and Delta Air Lines (NYSE:DAL - News), have created in-house low-fare units to compete head-to-head with discount carriers.

Just Wednesday, US Airways (NasdaqNM:UAIR - News) executive David Siegel said the surge of low-cost business, especially the entry of Southwest Airlines (NYSE:LUV - News) into Philadelphia, underscores the fragility of his airline.

"Southwest is coming to Philadelphia in May ... and they're coming for one reason: they're coming to kill us," Siegel told employees. US Airways emerged from bankruptcy a year ago next week and continues to struggle.

David Neelman, chief executive of surging low-cost carrier JetBlue Airways Corp. (NasdaqNM:JBLU - News), reacted cautiously to the government air travel projections.

"It all depends on the economy. If fares stay low people will travel," Neelman said. He added that JetBlue will continue to expand, but prudently.

Industry consultant Mike Boyd believes the FAA is over-optimistic in its forecast, saying his analysis shows growth of roughly 2.5 percent. He said capacity and other constraints limit growth in 2004, but expects the industry to be in better shape overall after shedding billions in costs and competing more keenly.

"We think the major carriers are going to be a lot healthier and more aggressive a year from now. That's if oil prices don't come over the transom too quickly," Boyd said.
 
USAir is being killed by SWA? I guess, but if SWA wasn't around, it would be someone else putting in the knife.


With the capacity increasing so much, someone has to feel the pain. Unfortunately, it will fall on USAir once again.
 
I think Delta's pay issues will be over by 2005 (We start negotiating this AUG)----and by then we will have more cost cutting done (through Grinstein's strategic review due this July)--so we will have a plan hopefull...... I think Grinstein is really looking at the whole operation and will find things to his disliking---and he will get rid of the old and bring in the new. I think our old team was a bit "reactionary"----and it is time to go on the offensive. I think the Song concept was a good one--but it has taken a while for it to catch on---and we have been full lately (thanks to Spring break). We have been told that the market place is "changing"---and we were one of the only majors (now UAL and TED) to go after and try to keep that low cost market that used to pay higher fares. You can't just give it away---and our only problem was the unfamiliarity with the brand (and the name), and the higher cost of the pilots--but that was offset a little by the addition of seats. We shall see......

Bye Bye--General Lee:rolleyes:
 
General,

I think most people get on a song flight and wonder what the heck is going on. They book through Delta reservations (or Delta.com), and notice people keep mentioning "song."

It is difficult to brand an "airline within an airline." Also, I am not sure it makes too much sense. They can hire new flight attendants for less cash, but they aren't that big of piece of the puzzle. Uless they could contract out the pilots, it isn't that much savings. I met a furloughed FA the other day and she said they really messed up when they didn't unionize. I agree...

I think people are booking these flights just like any other Delta flight. I don't think people are in a big hurry to fly "Song." If the flights are full, my guess is that they would have been full on Delta (before song).

For the record, I have always thought Delta was a top notch airline. I think song was not well thought out and that Leo was not only an idiot but an a$$ as well. Not sure about the Grinch...
 
Well, first off I hope you get back into an airline flying seat soon.(unless you enjoy being a Guard bum)

I think Song is an interesting concept---and I think it would have been harder to just bring down all of the fares for mainline---or in other words just bring down a few against the LCCs and have the rest higher to go after the business traveler. The concept of Song was all "low cost--lower fare"---and they also pitted Song against Jetblue--which had the TVs etc--so they also had to throw in the TVs. I have flown quite a few Song flights lately and the passengers love the TVs. Some have gotten off the plane and said to me at the door---"that was the best flight ever." (I thought it was do to my nice smooth landing??)

Grinstein has said he doesn't like the two airlines within one---because it dilutes the brand. But, the loads have done better lately and maybe it is catching on? We shall see. Take care.

Bye Bye--General Lee:rolleyes:
 
Look how wrong I was about ATA. The fare war is here, but these come and go all the time. So the saga continues...

Fare War Doesn't Bode Well for Airlines
Saturday January 8, 10:12 pm ET
By Meg Richards, AP Business Writer

Prospect of Fare War Doesn't Bode Well for Already Troubled Airline Industry


NEW YORK (AP) -- Moves by the major airlines to slash prices made headlines over the past week, but a potential fare war is just one of a multitude of pressures facing the industry.

Hefty fuel costs, challenging labor negotiations and mounting pension obligations add up to far bigger worries for airlines, especially the so-called legacy carriers -- Delta Air Lines Inc., UAL Corp.'s United, AMR Corp.'s American, Northwest Airlines Corp., Continental Airlines Inc. and US Airways Group. Financial professionals say it's a risky area to invest in, but if you've got the stomach for it, smaller low-cost carriers are probably the better gamble.

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"Unless you are a highly risk tolerant investor, avoid airline stocks," said Brian Hayward, airline analyst at Zacks Investment Research in Chicago. "There will be trading opportunities. If you think you're good enough to trade on where oil is going to go, and you think you're nimble enough to trade on that information, good luck."

Long a cyclical industry, airlines have had trouble making money for decades, but were especially hard hit after the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks. Passenger counts finally climbed back to pre-Sept. 11 levels during the fourth quarter of 2004. But airline stocks have plunged since Jan. 1 amid weak earnings and word that Delta was cutting fares dramatically in an effort to lure back bargain-hunting business fliers.

The losses, as measured by the American Stock Exchange Airline Index (XAL), only deepened as competing carriers rushed to match Delta's price action, which cut the most expensive fares by up to half and eliminated Saturday night stay requirements. In the days following the news, the index sank 14.21 percent.

Delta's pricing action, a direct result of competition from successful low-cost carriers like AirTran, JetBlue Airways Corp. and Southwest Airlines Inc., will likely accelerate industry restructuring, said Smith Barney analyst Daniel McKenzie. When it comes to determining which companies will survive, cash flow will be key, he said.

"It is no coincidence we are seeing simplified pricing. It was inevitable for the industry, given the aggressive growth of low-cost carriers," McKenzie said. "There's probably been no carrier in history that has struck as much terror in the corporate offices of the cyclical majors as JetBlue. That's what Delta has to respond to."

Hub fundamentals combined with cost structure will determine the long-term winners, McKenzie said. But in the short term, a big question for analysts is what impact the price changes will have on airline profits; it has not been factored into earnings estimates yet.

Fuel costs also remain a wild card. If crude oil prices soar back to the $55 range, it would increase bankruptcy risk for all the major airlines, McKenzie said. As it is, American narrowly escaped filing for bankruptcy in 2003 and Delta avoided it late last year, thanks to new financing and fresh labor concessions. Currently in bankruptcy court are United and US Airways, which is just days away from the possible liquidation of its assets unless it receives concessions from its labor unions.

If one of the big carriers did go out of business, it would actually help the remaining airlines survive. Almost everyone agrees the biggest problem facing the industry is excess capacity -- too many seats in the sky.

If, for example, US Airways -- the seventh largest carrier with 6 percent of seating capacity -- is grounded by liquidation, it would create more business for East Coast competitors like Delta and AirTran, and the second-most vulnerable player, Independence Air, which is having trouble making jet lease payments. It also would create an opportunity for an up-and-comer like JetBlue to step into the lucrative Northeast shuttle market.

The problem is, when airlines run into trouble, they never seem to actually stop flying. This is in part because they employ huge numbers of people, which makes their demise political. A more compelling reason, McKenzie and other experts say, is that companies that lease aircraft to the carriers are often lenient when it comes to deferment of debt, because they conclude the planes are worth more in the air than on the ground at a liquidation auction.

"It's impossible. If you like layoffs and the threat of bankruptcy, then be in the airline business," said Hayward, of Zacks. "Until somebody bites the bullet and seats go away, and I mean go away permanently, not to be replaced by someone else, we'll see these problems continue."

For the legacy airlines, although they've won concessions from workers, it's increasingly difficult to compete on cost with growth carriers like JetBlue or Southwest, which has the most consistent record of profitability in the industry. Because of this, analysts say, the low-cost carriers are better positioned to withstand all manner of pressure, whether it comes in the form of a price war or higher fuel costs.

McKenzie sees some buying opportunities for long-term investors who are prepared for a bumpy ride; Alaska Air Group Inc. is his top pick for the sector.

"If you are a bargain hunter, and can tolerate extreme risk or at least diversify it away in your portfolio, there are some airlines I think are long-term winners," McKenzie said. "I wouldn't fault investors with a longer time horizon in finding value in shares of Continental. And I also have a buy on AirTran, concluding that AirTran is a long-term winner in the industry and that it eventually will be valued as such."
 
Flying Freddie said:
Just wondering if the boys from the Harvard School of Business sit around and post on their boards on how to fly airplanes.;)

Sure they do!!! They can't run an airline, I am sure they think they can fly the airplanes.:) After all how hard could it be? We are a bunch of over paid bus drivers, and they are the upper crest of society.

AA
 
Flying Freddie said:
Just wondering if the boys from the Harvard School of Business sit around and post on their boards on how to fly airplanes.;)

Don't be silly. They come here (with insurance salesmen too) to tell us all how it is. After all, how stupid of us not to realize that JetBlue will take over the world when the E190s come!
 
FlyBoeingJets said:
Flying Freddie,

One should shoot for the best company with the best chance for longevity, not necessarily the highest paycheck.

FBJ,

Couldn't agree more. If you can figure out a way to do that, post it here !!

We used to think that pretty much described DL...and SWA was circling the drain when I left there. It's really a shot in the dark when all is said and done, unfortunately.
 
bafanguy,

Good point. SWA circling the drain!?, that must have been some time ago.

FedEx--They could lose a portion of the mail contract, I think. Is it renewable every 1-5 years??? UPS and Astar could start sneaking up on them.

UAL, AA, NWA, CO, or DAL--- They could start stealing LCC market share in a few years.

Regionals-- Are they the legacies of the future as they get bigger and bigger airplanes?? This is really far out in the future.
 

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