The Drizzle
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Who will buy Comair!
- Thread starter kngarthur
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shroomwell
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The Drizzle
I is a Airline Pilot!
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Taco Rocket
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Soverytired
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Only Delta knows . . . .
Delta will do the back room dealing on this one. Nobody wants to buy Comair because of their hard-core, expensive labor group with their old CRJ's (not slamming anyone here, just opine-ing) . . .
. . . but they MIGHT want to acquire it if Delta will guarantee a s-load of flying for Delta.
CHQ or Mesa . . . Delta will make the call. IMHO.
Delta will do the back room dealing on this one. Nobody wants to buy Comair because of their hard-core, expensive labor group with their old CRJ's (not slamming anyone here, just opine-ing) . . .
. . . but they MIGHT want to acquire it if Delta will guarantee a s-load of flying for Delta.
CHQ or Mesa . . . Delta will make the call. IMHO.
WSurf
The Smack Down!
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Yea... You don't want Mesa buying you!! Look what happened to CCAir after Mesa got them! CCAir had a really good contract that got slammed!! Instead of the Mesa folks fighting to keep that contract (CCAirs) they sat back and watched the CCAir folks fight a hopeless battle on there own!! It was sad!! And then voted on a piece of crap contract, that passed by 87%.
But then again it was all expected, they have another contract coming up....... expect the same!!
But then again it was all expected, they have another contract coming up....... expect the same!!
doh
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Why not just piece us out? They can send some to Mesa, some to CHQ, some to Skywest. We gave up the no furlough clause, so what prevents? I don't mean to be negative, but that's what I see happening. The aquiring carrier gets to start the new hire thing with lower pay and they get rid of us. I hope I get my class date soon! There is a huge disconnect from this place.
Some hypotheticals re the sale or acquisition of Comair by Mesa or RH.
MESA
Back in 2003 the Mesa pilot group signed a new contract. ALPA proudly announced that Section 1 of this contract would solve the problems created by Freedom and prevent their future repetition. It appears however, that was a bogus claim.
1. When one examines the language of Section 1 of the MAG contract one finds that it applies only to the “existing” subsidiaries of Mesa Air Group. That means existing at the time it was signed. Therefore, a “new” subsidiary that MAG might acquire in the future [e.g., Comair] is NOT subject to the terms of the contract.
That I can see, there is nothing in the Mesa pilots’ contract that would prevent Mesa Air Group from buying Comair and operating it as a separate subsidiary. A “merger with Mesa would NOT be required. Integration of the seniority lists would NOT be required.
The MAG contract is believed to contain the following provision: [Section 1.B.3.] “The Company shall not create or acquire an “alter ego” to avoid the terms and conditions of this Agreement.” That may sound nice but it has no teeth. We can argue forever as to what the term “alter ego” means. Even if the definition is agreed, as long as the purpose of the alter ego is not “to avoid the terms and conditions of [this] Agreement”, (which a separate entity would not do) it CAN be established.
2. Nothing in the Comair contract requires a “merger” if Comair is acquired by another entity.
3. Nothing in either the MES or CMR contract(s) would prevent the transfer of flying or equipment between MAG (current) and CMR.
Conclusion: Back to square 1. You would have the same conditions that were created when MAG established Freedom as a separate entity, i.e., two separate airlines operated by one holding company. The MAG pilots gave up a lot to integrate Freedom. However, they achieved NOTHING to prevent it from happening again. The only difference would be that both airlines are “union” – a repeat of the CCAir scenario.
Republic Holdings
Article 1 of the CHQ contract is better than Section 1 of the MAG contract. It is also better than Section 1 of the CMR contract. However, it applies ONLY to Republic Holdings (or its subsidiaries, which includes CHQ). It does NOT apply to the “Parent” of Republic Holdings, i.e., Wexford.
Conclusion: If Republic Holdings [or one of its subsidiaries] were to acquire Comair, seniority integration with the CHQ System Seniority List would be required.
Wexford Capital certainly has access to the money necessary to acquire Comair and is noted for investing in bankruptcy related situations. If Wexford were to acquire Comair, it appears they could operate CMR as a separate entity from Republic Holdings. No merger would be required and no seniority integration would be required.
In such a case, Republic Holdings or its subsidiaries could NOT transfer equipment or routes to Comair. However, nothing would prevent Wexford from transferring Comair equipment and routes, etc. to Republic Holdings (without the pilots).
Nothing in the Comair contract would require a merger. Nothing in the Comair contract would prevent the transfer of Comair equipment or flying.
Both Circumstances
Whether Comair is acquired by Mesa or by Wexford, the effect on Comair pilots is essentially the same. Better than being owned by Delta but still a potential giant mess.
Whether Comair is acquired by MAG or by Wexford, it can be “whipsawed” against the pilots of MAG or the pilots of REP (H). The “net” effect is essentially the same.
Mesa Air Group would have the equivalent of a “new” Freedom and Republic Holdings (CHQ and REP) would have the equivalent of a new alter ego under the Wexford umbrella. Comair people would have no protection at all.
Which would be the “lesser of two evils” from the perspective of the CMR pilots? In my opinion, that would be Mesa. The Comair pilots would be able to exercise far more leverage against Mesa Air Group than against Wexford. On the other hand, Wexford has the deep pockets and could allow an independent Comair to shine again.
While I think it would be better for Comair to be “owned” by Republic Holdings than by Mesa Air Group [it’s a better run company], being “owned” by Wexford would make it more difficult to resolve the potential problems long term, but could be much more stable. .
Should Mesa Air Group acquire Comair, I think JO would live to regret that day. It would ultimately result in a battle the likes of which even he can not imagine. Unlike Delta, JO just doesn’t have the strength to win such a fight. I think he probably knows that.
Would it be good for Wexford? Probably. Assuming Delta survives bankruptcy; it would put the Wexford companies in a much better position to compete with SkyWest for Delta business and would also permit Comair to diversify and get out of the “Delta only” quagmire. Unfortunately, what’s good for Wexford is not necessarily good for the pilot groups.
The best possible scenario for Comair people would be acquisition by an independent investor group (such as Wexford) followed by an IPO after bankruptcy resolution.
Just about anything would be better than continued ownership by Delta Air Lines. Being smothered by a deceased lover that secretly hates your guts is not an encouraging prospect. Being owned by Delta is like learning that your bed partner is HIV positive.
MESA
Back in 2003 the Mesa pilot group signed a new contract. ALPA proudly announced that Section 1 of this contract would solve the problems created by Freedom and prevent their future repetition. It appears however, that was a bogus claim.
1. When one examines the language of Section 1 of the MAG contract one finds that it applies only to the “existing” subsidiaries of Mesa Air Group. That means existing at the time it was signed. Therefore, a “new” subsidiary that MAG might acquire in the future [e.g., Comair] is NOT subject to the terms of the contract.
That I can see, there is nothing in the Mesa pilots’ contract that would prevent Mesa Air Group from buying Comair and operating it as a separate subsidiary. A “merger with Mesa would NOT be required. Integration of the seniority lists would NOT be required.
The MAG contract is believed to contain the following provision: [Section 1.B.3.] “The Company shall not create or acquire an “alter ego” to avoid the terms and conditions of this Agreement.” That may sound nice but it has no teeth. We can argue forever as to what the term “alter ego” means. Even if the definition is agreed, as long as the purpose of the alter ego is not “to avoid the terms and conditions of [this] Agreement”, (which a separate entity would not do) it CAN be established.
2. Nothing in the Comair contract requires a “merger” if Comair is acquired by another entity.
3. Nothing in either the MES or CMR contract(s) would prevent the transfer of flying or equipment between MAG (current) and CMR.
Conclusion: Back to square 1. You would have the same conditions that were created when MAG established Freedom as a separate entity, i.e., two separate airlines operated by one holding company. The MAG pilots gave up a lot to integrate Freedom. However, they achieved NOTHING to prevent it from happening again. The only difference would be that both airlines are “union” – a repeat of the CCAir scenario.
Republic Holdings
Article 1 of the CHQ contract is better than Section 1 of the MAG contract. It is also better than Section 1 of the CMR contract. However, it applies ONLY to Republic Holdings (or its subsidiaries, which includes CHQ). It does NOT apply to the “Parent” of Republic Holdings, i.e., Wexford.
Conclusion: If Republic Holdings [or one of its subsidiaries] were to acquire Comair, seniority integration with the CHQ System Seniority List would be required.
Wexford Capital certainly has access to the money necessary to acquire Comair and is noted for investing in bankruptcy related situations. If Wexford were to acquire Comair, it appears they could operate CMR as a separate entity from Republic Holdings. No merger would be required and no seniority integration would be required.
In such a case, Republic Holdings or its subsidiaries could NOT transfer equipment or routes to Comair. However, nothing would prevent Wexford from transferring Comair equipment and routes, etc. to Republic Holdings (without the pilots).
Nothing in the Comair contract would require a merger. Nothing in the Comair contract would prevent the transfer of Comair equipment or flying.
Both Circumstances
Whether Comair is acquired by Mesa or by Wexford, the effect on Comair pilots is essentially the same. Better than being owned by Delta but still a potential giant mess.
Whether Comair is acquired by MAG or by Wexford, it can be “whipsawed” against the pilots of MAG or the pilots of REP (H). The “net” effect is essentially the same.
Mesa Air Group would have the equivalent of a “new” Freedom and Republic Holdings (CHQ and REP) would have the equivalent of a new alter ego under the Wexford umbrella. Comair people would have no protection at all.
Which would be the “lesser of two evils” from the perspective of the CMR pilots? In my opinion, that would be Mesa. The Comair pilots would be able to exercise far more leverage against Mesa Air Group than against Wexford. On the other hand, Wexford has the deep pockets and could allow an independent Comair to shine again.
While I think it would be better for Comair to be “owned” by Republic Holdings than by Mesa Air Group [it’s a better run company], being “owned” by Wexford would make it more difficult to resolve the potential problems long term, but could be much more stable. .
Should Mesa Air Group acquire Comair, I think JO would live to regret that day. It would ultimately result in a battle the likes of which even he can not imagine. Unlike Delta, JO just doesn’t have the strength to win such a fight. I think he probably knows that.
Would it be good for Wexford? Probably. Assuming Delta survives bankruptcy; it would put the Wexford companies in a much better position to compete with SkyWest for Delta business and would also permit Comair to diversify and get out of the “Delta only” quagmire. Unfortunately, what’s good for Wexford is not necessarily good for the pilot groups.
The best possible scenario for Comair people would be acquisition by an independent investor group (such as Wexford) followed by an IPO after bankruptcy resolution.
Just about anything would be better than continued ownership by Delta Air Lines. Being smothered by a deceased lover that secretly hates your guts is not an encouraging prospect. Being owned by Delta is like learning that your bed partner is HIV positive.
Nothing prevents an asset sale. Section 1 of our contract isn't worth the paper it's written on. On the other hand are there any assets to sell or "piece out"? What does Comair actually "own"?
I think Delta will do whatever gets Delta the most cash. Comair's "equipment", which actually belongs to Delta, can be operated by any of the other 4. It can also be sold with or without the rest of Comair. Since most of the airplanes are 50-seaters, there's not much of a market either way.
The only real "asset" that CMR has is its people. Despite its best effort, Delta has not been able to kill that.
Otherwise, Delta has done a near perfect job of destroying what was once the best little airline in America. No two ways about that.
Still, if we can get rid of Delta's mismanagement, Comair can rise again.
I think Delta will do whatever gets Delta the most cash. Comair's "equipment", which actually belongs to Delta, can be operated by any of the other 4. It can also be sold with or without the rest of Comair. Since most of the airplanes are 50-seaters, there's not much of a market either way.
The only real "asset" that CMR has is its people. Despite its best effort, Delta has not been able to kill that.
Otherwise, Delta has done a near perfect job of destroying what was once the best little airline in America. No two ways about that.
Still, if we can get rid of Delta's mismanagement, Comair can rise again.
wolfpackpilot
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crjdxr
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surplus1 said:
I think we still own the plastic cubicle mats that increase our productivity by allowing us cubicle dwellers to maneuver our chairs more efficiently.
Amen.surplus1 said:
Do you have any thoughts on another entity/group purchasing Comair? A good bit of the discussion regarding the sale of Comair has dealt with our sale to another airline, or a holding group that already owns an airline or two. Depending upon the circumstances, that might be the only "good" outcome. The Hollis Harris rumor is interesting...surplus1 said:
SpacemanSpiff
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Huh?
I don't know how much more clear the CBA could be on the subject:
From Section 1 - Recognition, B - Scope, paragraph 1:
"...all present and future flying of any form performed in and for the service of the Company shall be performed by pilots on the Mesa Air Group Pilot System Seniority List in accordance with the terms and conditions of this Agreement."
From Section 2 - Definitions:
"F. 'Company' as used in the Agreement means Mesa Airlines, Inc., Air Midwest, Inc., CCAir, Inc., Freedom Airlines, Inc., and any other air carrier operated, controlled or owned by Mesa Air Group, Inc."
surplus1 said:
I don't know how much more clear the CBA could be on the subject:
From Section 1 - Recognition, B - Scope, paragraph 1:
"...all present and future flying of any form performed in and for the service of the Company shall be performed by pilots on the Mesa Air Group Pilot System Seniority List in accordance with the terms and conditions of this Agreement."
From Section 2 - Definitions:
"F. 'Company' as used in the Agreement means Mesa Airlines, Inc., Air Midwest, Inc., CCAir, Inc., Freedom Airlines, Inc., and any other air carrier operated, controlled or owned by Mesa Air Group, Inc."
SpacemanSpiff said:
That sounds pretty good. Perhaps the language that I have is not the final version of your contract, for it does not quite agree with what you posted above. I do not have Section 2 at all.
In the language that I have, the last sentence of Section 1.A.2. reads as follows: "Except as otherwise expressly indicated, the terms Mesa Airlines and "Company", as used herein, shall include all existing airline subsidiaries of Mesa Air Group." [Emphasis supplied]
If that is the same as what you have there is a conflict between the definition of Company that you quoted from Section 2 and what I quoted from Section 1.A.2. (above).
The langauge that I have for Section 1.B.1. - (Scope), the first sentence reads as follows:
"Except as provided herein, all present and future flying of any form performed in and for the service of the existing subsidiaries of the Company shall be performed by pilots on the respective seniority list in accordance with the terms and conditions of this Agreement." [Emphasis supplied]
Is that the same as you have or do I have an outdated version?
My opinion in the previous post was based on the language that I have in my possession. Please let me know if it is correct or not.
If the language that I have IS correct, then I see a conflict between the definition you quoted from Section 2 and what I am reading in Section(s) 1.A.2 and 1.B.1. That conflict (if it exists) would certainly result in a long drawn out grievance and arbitration. One that I think the union would ultimately lose.
Thanks for your help.
Soverytired
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RJ Bum
^ Not bumming it any more
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surplus1 said:
Wouldn't that be a fun fight...
Just curious, how many pilots are on the Mesa list? Not that I have ANY desire to work for Mesa or under their current management, but how would that work? Would Mesa pilots fight to fly under Comair's work rules (not the best, but certanly not Mesa) or would the list just be merged and fly under Mesa's pilot agreement?
Soverytired
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I'm not a fan of the "staple-method" (though my fat stomach could prob use it)
Hah! Would that it were that simple.
My guess:
surplus1 said:
Hah! Would that it were that simple.
My guess:
- Merger announced.
- Both ALPA-ized union groups get lots of money from their members for a "merger fund" (whee! . . .a "SPECIAL" assessment)
- Both groups fight for staple (Mesa) or DOH (Comair) by handing all that merger money to a bunch of shysters
- Goes to an arbitrator after the money runs out, and we get a funk-ified single list that no-one can explain or understand.
- Someone will announce that "If everyone is unhappy, we did something right." That person is an idiot.
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Soverytired
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Taco Rocket
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surplus1 said:
All said and done, most of the CCAir boys and girls made out very well in the seniority list integration. Guys went from Jetstream FO to RJ Captain with decent seniority in little time.
Sure in the end "nobody is happy" but maybe that's what's needed to make it "fair."
In my knowledge nobody has ever been stapled to the Mesa list, except for Freedom A (nonunion HP express CRJ900s, NOT the current Delta ERJS!) new hires.
DoubtingThomas
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Soverytired said:
As per the www.mesahub.com
Your Negotiating Committee was not replaced.
Same since your last famous contract (2003)
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