Who were the original pilots that agreed to this???

your_dreamguy

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The other day, I was talking to a friend and the topic of my pay came up. I told him, I make $38 per hour and he said wow!! You see, my friend works as an engineer in the real world. So, he thinks my $38 per hour translates into $76000 per yr as it would if I worked as an engineer, architect, etc. That got me thinking as to my real pay. My $38 per hour translates into about $19 per hour. How?

There are plenty of things that I am required to do but DO NOT get paid for.

I am required to:

Read company information letters,
check company email,
update my company material such as Jepp charts,
perform a pre-flight walk-around,
program an FMS,
get ATIS,
get a clearance,
program weight and balance,
read checklists,
take long scheduling sits, on the order of 3 to 4 hours.
etc.
without getting paid.

Now, I accepted this when I first got hired. However, that has never stopped me from thinking as to how our situation got this way. In other words, how were pilots convinced to perform required tasks and not get paid for them? Who were the original pilots that accepted that just brake release to brake set was considered work? How is it that this work has not been negotiated as pay by our unions? If my airline does not want to pay me $38 per hour to read a checklist, how about at least $10 per hour,"ground time?" I cannot think of too many other professions or industries where the employees are not paid for tasks that they are REQUIRED to perform. Can you? Also, in the future, can we (airline pilots) negotiate this required work as pay into our future contracts?
Your two cents?
 

crxpilot

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How about instead of reinventing the wheel you just remember how much you make per hour over your whole day and when you renegotiate your next contract you make sure your block hour pay is equivalent to whatever number you think "per hour" you should be making?
 

turbodriver

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Those same senior bastards that are screwing us guys at the bottom out of our jobs... thats who

reduced bid block program my a$$......
 

hockeypilot44

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We used to have really good trip regs. Usair had 3 to 1 trip regs at one point. That pretty much took block times out of account. Over time, the good things disappeared from the contracts, and the old school way of thinking that screws us stuck around.
 

SkiFishFly

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Paying us this way also gives a big PR advantage to management.

"Look at these greedy pilots - they are not happy making $50.00 per hour"

Most of the public has no clue we only get paid for a fraction of the time we are "at work". They only hear $50 or $100 or whatever the rate is and think man what a sweet deal that is...
Management loves this aspect of how we are paid.
 

contrail67

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The other day, I was talking to a friend and the topic of my pay came up. I told him, I make $38 per hour and he said wow!! You see, my friend works as an engineer in the real world. So, he thinks my $38 per hour translates into $76000 per yr as it would if I worked as an engineer, architect, etc. That got me thinking as to my real pay. My $38 per hour translates into about $19 per hour. How?

There are plenty of things that I am required to do but DO NOT get paid for.

I am required to:

Read company information letters,
check company email,
update my company material such as Jepp charts,
perform a pre-flight walk-around,
program an FMS,
get ATIS,
get a clearance,
program weight and balance,
read checklists,
take long scheduling sits, on the order of 3 to 4 hours.
etc.
without getting paid.

Now, I accepted this when I first got hired. However, that has never stopped me from thinking as to how our situation got this way. In other words, how were pilots convinced to perform required tasks and not get paid for them? Who were the original pilots that accepted that just brake release to brake set was considered work? How is it that this work has not been negotiated as pay by our unions? If my airline does not want to pay me $38 per hour to read a checklist, how about at least $10 per hour,"ground time?" I cannot think of too many other professions or industries where the employees are not paid for tasks that they are REQUIRED to perform. Can you? Also, in the future, can we (airline pilots) negotiate this required work as pay into our future contracts?
Your two cents?

I remember having the exact conversation when I started 17 years ago....the response I got was " it is all part of your job...if you don't like it...quit." And someone else will fill your shoes. It is the industry.

I would worry about something you can change.
 

freightdogfred

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How about Scope!
I'm curious as to where you got those Embraer and Canadair time/types,,,

Were you flying for a carrier you now want to "scope" out?
 

BoilerUP

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An experienced AIA or PE will average a billable rate well north of $80/hr...do you think their compensation averages over $166,000 annually?

(they don't)
 

Mike man

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Read company information letters,
check company email,
update my company material such as Jepp charts,
perform a pre-flight walk-around,
program an FMS,
get ATIS,
get a clearance,
program weight and balance,
read checklists,
take long scheduling sits, on the order of 3 to 4 hours.
etc.
without getting paid.
You should read "Flying the Line" it will fill in some of the gaps.
 
Last edited:

your_dreamguy

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Hey BolierUp,
Thx 4 your reply. My point is that most people who work get paid effectively. For example, my friend who is an engineer gets paid $42 per hour (for example). His typical work schedule is Monday through Friday 8AM to 5PM. That's 9 hours per day. So, he gets paid for working 8 hours and not for his one hour lunch break. So, he puts in 9 hours per day at work and gets paid for 8 hours. In other words, he is paid around 89% for the time he is actually at work.
For us airline pilots, it typically works like this. I show up early in the morning and fly from point A to point B back to point A (one turn) and I get 2 hours of pay. Then I have to put in a 4 hour sit, which is not paid for. During this 4 hour sit, I am usually stuck at the airport and cannot leave the airport grounds. In other words, I cannot go work out, take care of my kids, go shopping for necessary family items, etc. Then, I do another 2 hour turn and go home. Well, I just put in over 8 hours of my personal time and only got paid 4 hours. That's under 50% pay for the total amount of time I put in, whereas, the engineer is getting around 89% pay for his personal time he put in. Like I said earlier, if you don't want to pay me full hourly pay to perform a walk-around or read a checklist, etc., then don't. However, I do think some type of pay is in order to perform those tasks because they are MANDATORY work tasks that we pilots have agreed not to be paid for.
 

BoilerUP

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Your engineer friend gets paid hourly? That's a new one on me...every engineer I've ever met are on salary.

Anyway, I've done the airline pilot thing myself...one way you can "get paid for your time" is via trip and duty rigs. Your pay won't always be directly increased because of them, but a 2:1 duty rig will either financially compel the company to make your duty time efficient or you'll be compensated for your downtime. Trip rigs work the same way, and a 4:1 trip rig can increase your monthly credit (3.5:1 is MUCH better).

As you said, you knew and accepted the style of compensation when you accepted the job. If you don't like it, work within your airline and next CBA to change it...but you'll be more successful changing work rules, rather than trying to get paid a specific hourly rate for your non-flying duty time.
 

propjob27

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You always start out facing an uphill battle when you start discussing your hourly pay rate with a "normal" (ie, non pilot), paid-hourly working person.

When they hear you make $50 an hour (just using this figure as an example), they tend to be shocked at how high it is. This is simply because of the standard logic most people (who are paid hourly) use to crunch the numbers. They think:

You get paid 40 hours per week, just like them.
40 hrs x $50 = $2000 per week.
4 x 2000 = $8000 per month
12 x 8000= roughly $96,000 per year

You don't even need to get into programming FMS, listening to ATIS, sitting in airports for 3 or 4 hours etc to make them understand how things work. You just tell them that most pilots, yourself included are only paid 80 hours per MONTH. (again, thats just an example). And when you crunch the numbers that way, your $50 an hour x 80 = $4000 a month, which is only HALF of the way they were figuring it in the first place. And then quickly add in that you are normally "at work" (ie gone) for far more than 80 hours per month.

I find this pretty much dispels the Rich Pilot thing quickly.
 
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BoilerUP

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I too have found most folks, when told you only get paid 80-85 hours for sometimes 300+ hours time away from base each month, stop thinking that airline piloting is such a good deal...
 

cynic

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Who were the original pilots that accepted that just brake release to brake set was considered work? ...... Can you? Also, in the future, can we (airline pilots) negotiate this required work as pay into our future contracts?
Your two cents?
Ummmmmm..... I took an IT job because the job with COEX paid (at the time) about $19,000 a year. You evidently jumped at that job or its equivalent and now you would like to know why the pay is so low and if unions can negotiate better.

Funny.

I'm not mad but it is what it is. Pilots make that because it is not difficult to learn how to fly and people (like you) take the jobs.
 

Bringupthebird

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I worked at an airline that paid by the duty hour. If you can get past not bragging about earning $15/hr...
 

rice

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......................................
Now, I accepted this when I first got hired. However, that has never stopped me from thinking as to how our situation got this way. In other words, how were pilots convinced to perform required tasks and not get paid for them? Who were the original pilots that accepted that just brake release to brake set was considered work? How is it that this work has not been negotiated as pay by our unions? If my airline does not want to pay me $38 per hour to read a checklist, how about at least $10 per hour,"ground time?" I cannot think of too many other professions or industries where the employees are not paid for tasks that they are REQUIRED to perform. Can you? Also, in the future, can we (airline pilots) negotiate this required work as pay into our future contracts?
Your two cents?
You're joking right?????
You took a job at a regional carrier and you are wondering WHO is responsible for the sub-standard pay conditions in this industry??? Time for a chat with the mirror.
 

HalinTexas

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I always tell people that any time you see a pilot in uniform he's not getting paid.
 

Mercy98

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Exactly.

You start getting paid when the doors are closed and the wheels turn. Your pay stops when the door opens. Everything else is your dime and time.

This is just like the argument that we only work, on average, half of the month. The real story is that we are away from our families for half the month/half the year, however you calculate it.

Other industries don't get it and never will.
 

atpcliff

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Hi!

I was last making about $127/hour. BUT that was for a 45 hour guarantee, and I was only over guarantee about 20 hours in 6.5 years.

cliff
GRB
 
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