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who shot down the red baron ? (WW1)

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jsoceanlord

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 29, 2001
Posts
367
i was watching the discovery channel on JET BLUE last night and they were analyzing the red baron's last flight to see who shot him down. I didn't see the end and went to discovery.com to try and find the answer, but couldn't find it here. anyone know?

that picture of capt roy brown standing in front of his sopwith camel is the epitome of 'cool'.
 
Roy Brown has gotten the credit for around 85 years, I don't see any reason to change the story now. I suspect that the real reason that Richtoffen was shot down had more to do with the German militarys practice of keeping drained (physically and mentally) pilots in combat, than anything else.

regards,
8N
 
An American documentary, The Death of the Red Baron, on the Discovery Channel series Unsolved History, which aired yesterday, concluded that Roy Brown did not kill the legendary German aviator during a First World War dogfight, as history books say.

it wasn't Carleton Place ace Roy Brown, but an Australian machine gunner.

The Red Baron was a dashing 25-year-old German aristocrat who flew his bright red Fokker Triplane at the head of the notorious Flying Circus. He was the deadliest aviator of the First World War, responsible for shooting down 80 Allied planes. The filmmakers found it was probably an unheralded Australian machine gunner, Snowy Evans, who brought down Manfred von Richthofen near the French village of Vaux-sur-Somme on April 21, 1918.

They based their findings on a computer simulation of the brief engagement between Mr. Brown and the baron, a re-enactment of the battle using lasers for machine guns, and the expertise of former Hamilton forensic pathologist Dr. David King.

The film's host, Daniel Martinez, said the case will never be nailed down conclusively. Much of the evidence was looted by souvenir hunters after the baron's plane landed in a sugarbeet field.

"All we know is it was not Capt. Roy Brown who shot down the baron," he said in the show. "It was the Australian infantryman."

"There will never be a solution to this," said Mrs. Harmon, who married an American and has lived in the United States for 51 years. "They'd have to have the body and the bullet and the gun.
 
The USAF had a display at one of their museums which depicts the Aussie anti-aircraft gunners shooting down the RB. It was in Denver before the base shut down. I don't know if they moved it to Dayton, or not.
 
I read several years ago from a couple of different books that he was shot down 2 times before the fatal incident but survived. Can anyone verify this? Many of the greatest aces from WWI & II apparently got shot down a time or 2 themselves.
 
He broke a wing spar in a dogfight and got shot in the head,but managed to land both times.

"The Red Baron's Last Flight" by Norman Franks and Alan Bennett is an excellent book. The authors were consultants on the show on the Discovery Channel.
 
skykid said:
I read several years ago from a couple of different books that he was shot down 2 times before the fatal incident but survived. Can anyone verify this? Many of the greatest aces from WWI & II apparently got shot down a time or 2 themselves.

It's true. He was shot down twice and survived both times before he bought the farm.
 
skykid said:
I read several years ago from a couple of different books that he was shot down 2 times before the fatal incident but survived. Can anyone verify this? Many of the greatest aces from WWI & II apparently got shot down a time or 2 themselves.

Run a search for Manfred Von Richtofen with your favorite search engine. You'll find plenty. I found this quote from Richtofen himself. "Suddenly there was a blow to my head! I was hit! For a moment I was completely paralized [sic] . . . My hands dropped to the side, my legs dangled inside the fuselage. The worst part was that the blow on the head had affected my optic nerve and I was completely blinded. The machine dived down." Richthofen regained part of his eyesight around 2600 feet (800 meters). Though he was able to land his plane, Richthofen had a bullet wound in the head. The wound kept Richthofen away from the front until mid August and left him with frequent severe headaches.

The net is great.

regards,
8N
 
They did tests with laser guns to show how some of the infantry positions couldn't shoot him down. They found only two could have and based on a diary entry that eliminated one of them they concluded that a solider by the name of Evans I believe shot the Baron down.
 
IF I remember correctly there was a written description of wounds to his body that suggest a round struck him from an angle that could only been fired from the ground.
 
I seem to have remembered reading once that the round that killed him was from a British Enfield rifle. The standard issue British military infantry rifle of the day.
 
"I seem to have remembered reading once that the round that killed him was from a British Enfield rifle. The standard issue British military infantry rifle of the day."

According to the Discovery special, the autopsy showed that the bullet entered and EXITED. Maybe I missed it, but I don't think that they actually have the bullet.


"IF I remember correctly there was a written description of wounds to his body that suggest a round struck him from an angle that could only been fired from the ground"

Once again according to the tv show, the original autopsy stated that the shot could not have come from the ground.

I didn't see the first part of the special, so I don't know exactly how the researchers derived their timeline, but the show stated that two minutes elapsed between Richtofen escaping Brown and the ultimate crash landing. The theory seems to be that Richtofen could not have lived two minutes after being struck in the manner in which he had been struck. The bullet entered six or so inches below his right armpit and slightly aft. It exited just left of his left nipple. The experts declare that the nature of the wound would have killed the Baron quickly. He was still alive when the first of the ground troops reached the Fokker, so the experts believe that he received the fatal wound over one minute after Captain Brown broke off the engagment. I doubt that he was still alive when they reached him. I suspect that some ground troop imagined hearing "Kaput", as was supposed to be Richtofens last, and only, word.

I didn't really care, and I'm still surprised at the amount of effort and money spent on the subject. But I admit that doing a search and happening on to the Discovery special has been interesting.

regards,
8N

Added in an edit.

Does anyone just happen to know off of the top of your head, what the normal profile would have been when one had eluded his enemy at near ground level? Would the Baron have normally stayed low for a couple of minutes, or immediately begun to climb? Maybe some of you military trained pilots studied WW1 dogfighting tactics in your military training. Was this subject addressed?

I would imagine that a fighter pilot, especially one the stature of Richtofen, would want to get back to the battle. I also think that a pilot would want to immediately climb high enough to avoid ground fire. One must assume that Richtofen knew that he was over enemy territory. It is my (totally uninformed, yet hopefully logical) conclusion that the Red Baron was most likely injured in the aerial battle with Captain Brown. He had already proven that he could withstand battle damage when he was shot in the head in a previous dogfight and obviously control his aircraft when injured. I would guess that he took Captain Browns bullet, and began to look for a place to land. He managed to maintain consciousness long enough to accomplish that task. I've read enough stories of the ability of the human body/mind to continue when scientifically impossible to let me believe that he did in fact will himself to live long enough to land.
 
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In my aviation history class, we learned that it was a pilot from the Canadian Air Force that delivered the final blow.

I find it interesting how there are so many different theories on who killed the guy.
 
...the third gunman on the grassy knoll :D
 

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