Who is in charge, PIC right?

[KigAir]

I recently had an incident happen that made my blood boil. I was inbound and cleared to land at to my local airport, 1.5 mile final when the controller put a C150 in front of me( I am in a C210). When the C150 got in front of me I had .5 mile seperation. I started to perform S-turns to get some distance between me and the C150 when the controller asked me if I was following the traffic in front of me. When I informed him that I was performing S-turns for seperation, he told me that I was not authorized to perform any maneuvers in the traffic pattern. WTF?? Sorry for the rant.

 

[Flying Illini]

I would have to side with you and probably would have done the same thing. Your only options are to slow down to final appch speed and then beyond that, maneuver. It may not have been a collision hazard between you and the 150 but you surely would have had to go around costing you time and money.

Did you call him after you landed to discuss your feelings and why you did the s-turns?

 

[328dude]

I assume you were VFR if a 150 was puttin around. But did he clear you for the visual approach? If he did, you can get down anyway you know how.

I would have run the SOB over, but that's just me.

Tell the ATC guy to go stuff one in your pitot tube.

 

[midlifeflyer]

When I informed him that I was performing S-turns for seperation, he told me that I was not authorized to perform any maneuvers in the traffic pattern. WTF?? Sorry for the rant.

That might be one of the few times that I would use the turn-about is fair play reply, "Sir, may I have a phone number so that I can discuss this with you on the ground?"

The only gripe that ATC might even legitimately have had is that, in general, ATC like to know what everyone is doing. In the same circumstances, I might say, "Tower, Cessna 111 is making S-turns for separation" as I began them. (After all, what if you decided that a 360 was a good separaton technique). Information, not a request. (Might, although today I didn't when my student and I did some behind a Katana)

 

[Toy Soldier]

AIM advice

MidLifeFlyer is right.

The AIM takes it a step further however. The AIM states that "you are not to make "unanticipated/unusual" maneuvers while in the traffic pattern at a towered airport.

I understand your maneuvers though. But first, as Midlife states - advise tower of your intent. Second, know that the AIM is on the towers side.......

 

[FearlessFreep]

I usually don't respond to posts like this but really.

Maybe you should learn to slowdown, its not like that C-210 is going to fall out of the sky at 70 Kts or less. If you hear the tower put traffic in front of you the first thing you should do is acquire traffic visually, assess the situation and adjust speed appropriately. This might entail pulling the large black knob on the left of the blue and red knobs towards you the required amount. Subsequent backpressure on the yoke and slight adjustment in trim may be necessary.

If you can't make that process work tell the tower what you are doing. If you were landing at a field with parallel runways the controllers may not be too appreciative of you S-turns.

If you have problems accomplishing this procedure make sure that you stay away from busy airports during peak traffic times, like cargo rush.

Sorry.

Take Care, Good Luck & Fly Safe!

 

[saabcaptain]

I think your choice to make proper seperation is a good one, however per the AIM you really can't make unusual manuevers without notifying the Tower. I would have told the tower the seperation was inadequate and you needed to make S-turns in which case he would either A) approve them or B) take you out of the traffic flow and have you reenter. PIC has to take ultimate responsiblity for the safety of your aircraft but you have to be reasonable in notifying others of your intentions.

Fly safe...

 

[Hawker rider]

FeerlessFreep : I don't normally respond to posts like this either, but you are walking a fine line there, i don't know the speeds for the above mentioned airplane, but how low of a speed reduction is safe? The other day i had to reduce speed quite big in my Lear following another, but slower (and newer...) Lear HE was on a long straight in final and started slowing down over the outerMarker, I was on a vectored baseleg with a turn to final within the marker. Approach asked me to slow down a few times and and finally gave me a speed below my Vfe-full which in this case (FYI Vfe-full=Vref+10) I had to tell him that I couldn't accept this since I also still had to manuever to final.

End was that the other jet could sidestep to the parrallel runway, which wasn't long enough for us, so it worked out good.

Low Speeds are fine, but it's all a combination of factors that demand the lowest safe speed for a given portion of the flight. Just like I know I can go below Vref since it gives me a 30% barrier over stallspeed, but if it is wise to do, mabe in some situations you can do it, but certainly not just at will.

sounded like the S-turns was the right thing, short of a missed approach, but yeah, mabe next time TELL the tower that you are doing it for separation. Although I probably wouldn't have told him either.

 

[A Squared]

>>>>>>Second, know that the AIM is on the towers side.......

It appears that is not the case here. You say that the AIM says you can't make "unanticipated" manuvers, which it does, but it goes on to say that s-turns on final are anticipated manuvers. A 360 degree turn would not be anticipated.

From AIM 4-3-5

"The controller can *anticipate* (emphasis added) minor maneuvering such as shallow "S" turns. The controller cannot, however, anticipate a major maneuver such as a 360 degree turn. If a pilot makes a 360 degree turn after obtaining a landing sequence, the result is usually a gap in the landing interval and, more importantly, it causes a chain reaction which may result in a conflict with following traffic and an interruption of the sequence established by the tower or approach controller. Should a pilot decide to make maneuvering turns to maintain spacing behind a preceding aircraft, the pilot should always advise the controller if at all possible. Except when requested by the controller or in emergency situations, a 360 degree turn should never be executed in the traffic pattern or when receiving the controller."

 

[FearlessFreep]

Hawker rider,

I certainly understand your quandary about your ref speeds and the impact of gross weights you would have in dealing with those situations.

The thing is that the Cessna 150, and the Cessna 210 are both certified under Part 23. All single engine aircraft certified under this category have to meet a minimum stall speed parameter under gross weight conditions in the landing configuration. Obivously a Cessna 150 will stall at a slower speed than a C-210. I assure you that a 210 can slow down enough to follow a Cessna 150 safely, unless the 150 is really screwing around which I would doubt would be happening in a controlled environment. If I can do it in a fully loaded Caravan than I am sure it should not be a problem in a 210

The incident that was referenced here is obviously VFR, how much room do you need to pull an approach together with a modicum of a speed reduction?

Speed reductions and manipulations in your approach procedures specifically in VFR conditions are part and parcel of the daily grind.

I certainly understand that I would not want to slow beyond Vref final, yes I know what it means though you forgot to mention +10 for calm winds or headwinds < 10 kts OR if the following is > 10 kts, half the wind and all of the gust for a total less than or equal to Vref + 20.

Of course if a speed reduction puts you below that speed tell ATC your unable.

It's all about communication!

Take Care, Good Luck & Fly Safe!

 

[dmspilot00]

From AIM 4-3-5

"The controller can anticipate minor maneuvering such as shallow "S" turns. The controller cannot, however, anticipate a major maneuver such as a 360 degree turn.

I *KNEW* there was something in the AIM specifically saying that it was okay to make S-turns but not 360s. I was just too lazy to look it up and surprised that no one else remembered. Good job.

 

[saabcaptain]

That's excellent I wasn't aware of 4-3-5.