Who is getting the call?

[100/hour/5y]

Surprised you didn't talk him out of it.......considering how much you hate the place.

I told him to wait for DL, but he was sick of flying the ERJ!!!

 

[filejw]

For those that are looking for info, I apologize for the drift.
But yes, I am an "idiot". If you mean by "idiot" someone who doesnt think flying mil automatically makes you more "qualified" than a civilian who's actually been doing the job, then yes, im an "idiot". my resume is unique and speaks for itself, no need to defend it to anyone.. its just not personal. ive never done any mil flying. if i had, i would be proud of that. but it wouldnt mean that i was more qualified for a major airline job. This idea that it does is pure myth.
I have AF guys now that tell me all the time what the xtranormal vid says- Civs can fly circles around most mil pilots- we see the big picture on average much better than military pilots, esp fighter, and are much more enjoyable to fly with. We understand the crew concept better. That's bc we've been doing the job on tougher schedules our whole career.

Do not get me wrong, I do not disrespect your service. I respect it. More than you know. I am proud of you. But it doesn't mean you should get preference, and certainly shouldn't come into a 121 crew environment and be cocky when you don't tend to even know what you don't know. Dumbest questions in my class were from the f15 guy. Who also thought nothing of acting like a dbag to his classmates and criticizing them for their questions bc he wanted to leave class early. I didn't judge bc he didn't know better. He'd been pumped up his whole career, and he'd NEVER DONE THE 121 JOB. So how could he? Is he capable? Probably. Does his arrogance hurt him? In 121? Yeah. But he studied hard and eventually got it. Captains recently told me it was a long trip, and weve been here over 6 years now. And he's not unique with his background.
How long do we have to keep burying our head in the sand about this?
It's my opinion that I could've "studied hard and eventually got it" right out of cessnas. That's the equivalent. I had always shown aptitude. i had always been successful. what i wasnt, was qualified yet. Any other job, never having done the job would label you less qualified, but somehow flying mil is supposed to make you MORE qualified? When the flying only loosely relates.
Doesn't make sense. Go to an RJ, fly it for a year and come to class. Learn 121 like the rest of us. Only to mil pilots who feel entitled, would this be a disrespectful concept.

But I concede that this age old debate won't be decided here on this thread, so I'll bow out, wish everybody good luck in their job searches- Im glad hiring is finally looking up, and apologize again for the thread drift to those looking for info.

In the 80's the military preference was driven by the over all majority of management pilots who had prior military experience . However now it's the training footprint .Airlines keep detailed information on the experience and background of all piolts and military types generally have a better record .Remember we are talking about a very small percent of training events but bean counters get into that kind of detail..Ie if they have 4 pilots needing more traing 3 will be civ and 1 mil..

 

[waveflyer]

No, mil pilots really don't have a better record. Haven't for quite a while now. I've been in that office in 2 airlines, and have to disagree. Where are you getting that?

That appears to me to be a biased view -can you prove that one out for year 2013- I'm all ears if you have actual evidence.

In every class at every airline I've worked at, the mil pilots 121 inexperience showed in training- how could it not? Now that most civ pilots have thousands of hours of 121 jet/FMS/next gen experience- there is no question who is more qualified, and no question who performs better. Esp online, but training as well.
I will give military pilots their due- they are good at putting one foot in front of the other and getting through bc no civ training is as difficult as military flight training. But I believe you have 10-15 year old information from earlier RJ days.

That was the conventional wisdom in recruitment offices- military pilots were rarely great, bc they had never done the job- but they could get through. Whereas there was a wide variation between civilian pilots, the majority of which had small amounts of jet time, and mostly turboprop time. They were either really good, or pretty bad- and like you said, the ones who needed extra time (ie: $$) were 2/3 civ.

Fast forward to the outsourced world. And many military pilots have had to spend time at regionals bc they were the only ones hiring-( and that's clearly the best all around resume there- .)
But now an average civilian pilot has 3000-5000 hours of jet pic time in these RJ's that have propagated out to every dick with a certificate- and training records no longer reflect that conventional wisdom circa the end of the millennium.

Again, I'm not closed minded and have no axe to grind. But in my experience, which is (humbly) extensive- 6 airlines 20 years, and 16,000 hours, and an interviewer at two. - this "military pilots are better" is pure ego-oriented hook a brother up myth. Show me evidence of that.

And training?? Really?

The job is not "training" -

I will say that I value the military background more than I'm expressing, but I do think that most would be well served to sit in an RJ for a few years before hopping right into a major. Should be required for fighter types. It isn't a dig, it's just getting experience and showing great attitude in getting that all around resume-

I know that's unpopular with those who have that background, but like I said, I didn't create the fighter jock's rep-

Biggest thing I fight against is when the fighter pilots come in all pumped up sh/tting on their peers- even among other fighter guys- it's the dumbest thing I've seen-
Got captains at the mafia that still walk around like iceman... Silly

But again, if you've got evidence to the contrary- go ahead and post

 

[Brasilia Flyer]

Interesting post!

 

[JumpersAway]

Plain and simple.....ANY pilot with a superiority complex is, at best, an irritation. This is regardless of background. Just check your ego at the door, and learn the company way.

 

[filejw]

No, mil pilots really don't have a better record. Haven't for quite a while now. I've been in that office in 2 airlines, and have to disagree. Where are you getting that?

That appears to me to be a biased view -can you prove that one out for year 2013- I'm all ears if you have actual evidence.

In every class at every airline I've worked at, the mil pilots 121 inexperience showed in training- how could it not? Now that most civ pilots have thousands of hours of 121 jet/FMS/next gen experience- there is no question who is more qualified, and no question who performs better. Esp online, but training as well.
I will give military pilots their due- they are good at putting one foot in front of the other and getting through bc no civ training is as difficult as military flight training. But I believe you have 10-15 year old information from earlier RJ days.

That was the conventional wisdom in recruitment offices- military pilots were rarely great, bc they had never done the job- but they could get through. Whereas there was a wide variation between civilian pilots, the majority of which had small amounts of jet time, and mostly turboprop time. They were either really good, or pretty bad- and like you said, the ones who needed extra time (ie: $$) were 2/3 civ.

Fast forward to the outsourced world. And many military pilots have had to spend time at regionals bc they were the only ones hiring-( and that's clearly the best all around resume there- .)
But now an average civilian pilot has 3000-5000 hours of jet pic time in these RJ's that have propagated out to every dick with a certificate- and training records no longer reflect that conventional wisdom circa the end of the millennium.

Again, I'm not closed minded and have no axe to grind. But in my experience, which is (humbly) extensive- 6 airlines 20 years, and 16,000 hours, and an interviewer at two. - this "military pilots are better" is pure ego-oriented hook a brother up myth. Show me evidence of that.

And training?? Really?

The job is not "training" -

I will say that I value the military background more than I'm expressing, but I do think that most would be well served to sit in an RJ for a few years before hopping right into a major. Should be required for fighter types. It isn't a dig, it's just getting experience and showing great attitude in getting that all around resume-

I know that's unpopular with those who have that background, but like I said, I didn't create the fighter jock's rep-

Biggest thing I fight against is when the fighter pilots come in all pumped up sh/tting on their peers- even among other fighter guys- it's the dumbest thing I've seen-
Got captains at the mafia that still walk around like iceman... Silly

But again, if you've got evidence to the contrary- go ahead and post

The info comes from my training managers from a conversation say two weeks ago. Old info, maybe but sounds like it will be used when we start hiring again and yes this thought process was used in the 90's and 80's . Are they using old data, maybe but that's what they believe from the last round of new hires .Then again these are the same people that decided TPIC was not a big reqirement anymore. Mostly because some new folks had a real hard time figuring out how to be FO's and we ended up with more than enough complains from line Capts ..FYI I am civ...

 

[Dan Roman]

Plain and simple.....ANY pilot with a superiority complex is, at best, an irritation. This is regardless of background. Just check your ego at the door, and learn the company way.

This sums it up best. Generally speaking, the ones with the superiority complex that think their background makes them better than pilots with a different background are invariably the weakest pilots. Flown with great guys straight out of fighters and flown with great pure civ background pilots. It really is only about attitude, not what you flew.

 

[waveflyer]

Plain and simple.....ANY pilot with a superiority complex is, at best, an irritation. This is regardless of background. Just check your ego at the door, and learn the company way.

Well said- (!)
These skies have been traveled a long time-

 

[waveflyer]

Filej- nothing worse than a right seat capt who can't figure out their role

 

[filejw]

Filej- nothing worse than a right seat capt who can't figure out their role

Right on the money WF but plenty of blame to go-around I'm sure. All this speculation on who is better will not make a difference in 2/3 years when guys like me stop having a good time and leave .Just not enough folks learning to fly and even less separation from services.My kids are good examples. Degrees but nothing special and both got 60k right out of school.People are just no going to put the cash into something that doesn't pay.