Whiners - Part 2

[Hamburger]

Bottom line, If We screw it up, We die. If You screw it up, We die.

Yeah, little too much Drama on that one. I'll amend "die" to "lose our license". I've never read a dispatcher's name in the newspaper.

If you die because some dispatcher screwed up, you didn't do your job, chump.

Truer words were never spoken. It is absolutely our job to catch your mistakes. The best tool we've got to keep us safe when the ball has been dropped...........Some extra fuel.

With all due respect, Ruskie, a personal fuel comfort zone is not a good enough reason to ground or delay a flight.

It most certainly is. I know people like to think differently these days, but I'm the Captain. If it is a problem for the company, my Chief Pilot will bring it to my attention. That's not your job.

Switching runways, flow, storms pop up, some guy gears up his Mooney........ At min fuel, (especially on those great sunny days with no alternate) any one of these things pop up and you'll probably be looking at the "Low Fuel" lights before you reach the ground.
I know your dispatch desk doesn't have "Low Fuel" lights, so you'll just have to trust us. They are no fun to look at.
Your job is to accommodate several flights. Our job is to be responsible for our flight. Just give us what we ask for and move on to the next customer. Don't get distracted trying to be the Chief Pilot.

If you want to call him up and tell him we're wasting fuel, knock yourself out.

 

[onewithwings]

Ruskie, you should sit with your dispatchers for a full shift; we have to jumpseat ride - you should have to do dispatch sector ride and see what happens on the other side of the mike; I think your eyes will be opened wide.

I have been pushing for that. (Especially upgrade pilots) It always comes back to a lame excuse.

"It's not included in our CBA".

The company doesn't want to pay them for the time spent in dispatch but they will pay them to sit reserve a few hundred feet away.

Every year during my FAM flights, I hand each pilot an invitation to reciprocate. The invitation includes my current bid and cell number. I do the same thing for recurrent ground school during CRM/DRM.

While I have had many pilots voluntarily sit with me, the majority do not.

 

[ss9e]

Your job is to accommodate several flights. Our job is to be responsible for our flight. Just give us what we ask for and move on to the next customer. Don't get distracted trying to be the Chief Pilot.

You couldn't be more wrong. We share JOINT RESPONSIBILITY. You should start giving us a little more respect.

At my company, we are being given fuel directives that have been approved my company management, flight management (including the chief pilot) and ALPA. We all stand to benefit by using less fuel. If you call and have a valid reason to add some gas, you will never hear an argument out of me. If it's clear and million and you want to pull out the trusty "comfort card" to add gas, the answer will always be no.

My company has done extensive research into the fuel actually burned. In the last month I've released 234 flights. Those flights have only burned 95% of the planned actual burn. The same 234 flights use an average of 99% of the taxi fuel planned. Why would there be a need to add any extra fuel?

 

[WalterSobchak]

I know your dispatch desk doesn't have "Low Fuel" lights...

I've got the trusty "ACARS fuel ping" flasher that I'm using almost non-stop throughout the day. I know when my boys and girls are low...because, like it or not, I still have a responsibility to take care of that flight 'til the wheels touch the ground...just like you.

The airplane and it's contents are all yours...the overall safety and continuation of flight is my baby...thus making it ours.

I've never once argued with a pilot over fuel. I HAVE, however, shared my point of view and the latest weather and traffic management briefings with a promise of consistent updates enroute and a ready "Plan B" if we need it. Only once has a pilot pulled out of the gate with more than the usual couple hundred extra after a discussion with me.

Like many have said...alot of times, our pilots tell us nothing of the routing and enroute issues that may require a change in thought process during the planning phase. Help us help you and communicate with us.

Every year during my FAM flights, I hand each pilot an invitation to reciprocate. The invitation includes my current bid and cell number.

I love this idea.

I've been pushing for upgrade pilots to be required a few hours with dispatch as well. The few that do visit tend to walk away with a new respect for what we do and what we are dealing with on a daily and hourly basis...

 

[Hamburger]

You couldn't be more wrong. We share JOINT RESPONSIBILITY. You should start giving us a little more respect.

Might want to reread the regs...
I'll highlight the areas you seem to not understand.


(b) The pilot in command and the aircraft dispatcher are jointly responsible for the preflight planning, delay, and dispatch release of a flight in compliance with this chapter and operations specifications.


(c) The aircraft dispatcher is responsible for—
(1) Monitoring the progress of each flight;
(2) Issuing necessary information for the safety of the flight; and
(3) Cancelling or redispatching a flight if, in his opinion or the opinion of the pilot in command, the flight cannot operate or continue to operate safely as planned or released.


(d) Each pilot in command of an aircraft is, during flight time, in command of the aircraft and crew and is responsible for the safety of the passengers, crewmembers, cargo, and airplane.
(e) Each pilot in command has full control and authority in the operation of the aircraft, without limitation, over other crewmembers and their duties during flight time, whether or not he holds valid certificates authorizing him to perform the duties of those crewmembers.
[Doc. No. 6258, 29 FR 19219, Dec. 31, 1964, as amended by Amdt. 121–253, 61 FR 2613, Jan. 26, 1996]

You are responsible for the release and paperwork.

Once the brake drops, dispatcher responsibility is limited to monitoring, providing information (which we have access to anyway), and redispatching if the crew needs an alternate. That's it. You are NOT responsible for the safety of that flight. This is why there is no such thing as a Dispatcher in Command.

I give dispatchers the respect they deserve on a case by case basis, because many do a fantastic job and many are useless. I'll let you guess which side of the line dispatchers who start threads calling us whiners or try to claim that we don't have ultimate authority and responsibility tend to fall on.

 

[ShutupandFly]

Once the brake drops, dispatcher responsibility is limited to monitoring, providing information (which we have access to anyway), and redispatching if the crew needs an alternate. That's it. You are NOT responsible for the safety of that flight. This is why there is no such thing as a Dispatcher in command.

Got to disagree with you there. I know a couple of dispatcher that had to do the carpet dance at the FSDO right next to the PIC due to an issue that affected the safety of flight, and one that did it alone while the pilot sat at home. (hey I'm a poet)

 

[dispatchguy]

(3) Cancelling or redispatching a flight if, in his opinion or the opinion of the pilot in command, the flight cannot operate or continue to operate safely as planned or released.

Once the brake drops, dispatcher responsibility is limited to monitoring, providing information (which we have access to anyway), and redispatching if the crew needs an alternate. That's it. You are NOT responsible for the safety of that flight. This is why there is no such thing as a Dispatcher in Command.

Wrong-o.

I dont redispatch just if the crew needs an alternate. I can (and have) redispatched the flight to a different destination because the original destination was no longer a possibility, due to weather which was W0X0F; I can and have told a crew that I strongly recommend a different course of action because the area of severe turbulence they were about to penetrate would break their airplane (if a B747 reports severe, whats my little B737 gonna get?). You bet your ass that I am responsible for your safety, and the safety for every passenger on the other side of the flight deck door. Yeah, you are the on-scene commander, and we are to agree to 100%, but if I feel that safety is being compromised, it is my job and responsibility as a certificated airman to make it known that I feel that safety is being compromised.

I have had crews who have decided that they didnt want to act in accordance with the QRH (a reverser unlocked indication in flight); QRH says land at nearest suitable. Crew didnt want to - but, the QRH says what the QRH says. Captain said we're ok to continue, and I declared an emergency because at that time the crew was no longer flying in accordance with their dispatch release, because I withdrew my agreement to operate the flight; the captain (as PIC) had decided to continue. My agreement is continuous - it doesnt end once the wheels are in the well; and if I feel that the flight is no longer safe once in the air, you're damned right it is my responsibility to say so. The crew in my example couldnt say for 100% surety that the indication was a bad switch, or an impending problem; we had written guidance from the manufacturer saying get that puppy on the ground now, not at a destination an hour away (which just so happened to be where the captain lived); and MOC was at the end of their fault isolation tree which said the same thing; LAND. Crew said we were continuing, and I called ATC and declared an emergency for the flight, for the only time a crew can act not in accordance with their dispatch release is when an emergency is declared, then under 91.3, you can do pretty much anything you want to the extent required to meet the emergency.

Yes, you are the PIC. You are the on-scene commander, I dont have access to the flight controls. However, for better or worse, for 121 domestic and flag operations, you share JOINT OPERATIONAL CONTROL with the dispatcher.

I do your flight planning, you review and sign off, and go fly; however, my responsibility for that flight is continuous until the brakes are set at the arrival airport.

 

[Hamburger]

You might not agree with it. You might not understand it. You might want to read things into it that aren't there. It doesn't matter, The regs say what the regs say. It is black and white.

However, for better or worse, for 121 domestic and flag operations, you share JOINT OPERATIONAL CONTROL with the dispatcher.

Actually, the air carrier certificate holder has operational control. Typically the Duty Chief and Ops Chief wear this hat.
Part A from the above quoted reg:
(a) Each certificate holder conducting domestic operations is responsible for operational control.

 

[RJAA]

Actually, the air carrier certificate holder has operational control. Typically the Duty Chief and Ops Chief wear this hat.
Part A from the above quoted reg:
(a) Each certificate holder conducting domestic operations is responsible for operational control.

They delegate this authority to individual dispatchers on duty.

 

[405]

Nevermind.