Which PT-6 is More Desirable?

[puddlejumper]

My company has managed to get ourselves into a situation and I'd like to get the opinions of some of you on the board. We had an overhaul done by a reputable shop on a PT-6. This engine was on the MORE program with about 4700 hrs since new, about 4300 CSN and 200 hrs since HSI. It was installed as original equipment on a 1978 Cheyenne II. Since the overhaul, this engine has exhibited intermittent torque and fuel flow fluctuations. We've had several other problems since overhaul, including oil leaks and a FCU/responsiveness problem at high-altitude fields. The overhaul included a 3600 hour factory warranty.

After several visits to the overhaul facility and a power section tear-down and torque indicator system re-work, a loaner has been installed. This loaner engine was manufactured in 1999, it has 1025 TSN and something like 800 CSN. It's life as a loaner has been fairly easy from what I could tell by looking at the logs. Ours is the third aircraft it's been installed on. The only problem I could find was a loose oil line connection which resulted in a precautionary in-flight shutdown with the oil pressure never reaching the red-line. (I know this only because it happened on our aircraft as a loaner while our engine was being overhauled).

My question is, what issues would you all address if this loaner engine is offered to us instead of trying to go through reinstalling our original engine? This first-run engine will be up for hot section 1000 hrs earlier. Does this make our engine worth more? All SBs were complied with during the overhaul. I don't think there is any real cycle limited components in our original engine (nothing less than like 12,000 cycles to go), but I'll need to look into that.

This has been our company's first turbine overhaul and also my first. I personally would have suggested securing the service of a professional to assist and advise before and during the overhaul process, but the decisions were already made before I was hired. My company is into engineering and I believe they thought they could handle it all on their own. I'd appreciate any and all thoughts on this matter. If anyone would like more details, feel free to PM me. Thanks!

-PJ

 

[capt_zman]

Looking at how turbine engines are valuated, everything is based off of hours and cycles. With your new engine, no matter what the state, it is worth more money than the demo engine. You have a 3600 hr warranty, albeit pro-rated, but Pratt normally stands by this, especially when a newly overhauled engine shows persistent problems. This is somewhat common, especially when the dreaded MORE program comes into play. Be sure to check all of your cycle limited parts for compliance and see what parts are new vs. used.

Considering the warranty and the hefty price you paid for the overhaul, I would just stick with the new engine. They'll iron out all of the bugs, as the -28's are good engines. If you go with the demo, which I would be shocked if they even offered to you, you're throwing money out the window, especially if you go to sell the airplane in the next couple of years.

 

[400A]

pt-6

Stick with your engine. As Previous post said it will greatly effect resale values..

Make the overhaul shop stand on its warranty. Sounds like something a fuel controller issue to me. You will probably have to get nasty with them.

Never been a fan of the More program. just puts off required MX.

 

[H25BCPTN]

Don't take the loaner. We have had two TFE731 loaners go bad on our Hawker 800s. Luckly none at a critical phase of flight. One froze up the N1 during shutdown, the other time a rumble and oil leak was so bad they just took it off. Just my 2 cents worth.

Fly Safe

 

[puddlejumper]

Thanks All

Thanks for all the advice. It turns out while I was out in Salt Lake, a deal was made. Pratt offered the loaner and a monetary settlement. (They paid us a good chunk of cash) I think they figured the 1st run engine was worth $240k and the overhauled engine was something like $200k. They applied some bluebook hour adjustment to the value of the loaner and paid us the difference. This is how I understood it anyway. I recommended keeping our engine and having them make it right first and second, maybe have the loaner hot sectioned or give us an allowance for the HSI when it comes due. Our settlement won't cover a worst-case HSI, I don't believe. Oh well! I'm just the pilot right?

-pj

 

[400A]

Puddlejumper

Was Pratt the overhaul shop?? My JT15D-5's are due in 900 hours, and if that was pratt, they are not going to touch mine.

I have been hearing horror stories about pratt overhauls,, Thinking I will send mine to Dallas.

Best of luck!

 

[puddlejumper]

400A

Check your PMs.

-pj

 

[Headwind]

We have had some VERY bad experiences with P&W. I don't think anyone could do a better job at mistreating a customer than they have done to us. It would take all day to tell you of our last 6 months with Pratt. We also had a bad experience with them last year. The boss said to find another aircraft without Pratts. We cant afford a CJ-2 so were looking at Lear 31's with MSP Gold.
BTW I know someone who just sent a JT15D-5 (Citation IV) in to WV for its first overhaul. You know 1st runs are considerably less than 2nd or 3rd. Well they were doing them one at the time and the estimate from Pratt (after 2 1/2 months) was over $507,000!

 

[WrightAvia]

"This is somewhat common, especially when the dreaded MORE program comes into play."

I don't understand this statement. Dreaded MORE program. We run that. What's so dreaded about it?

 

[capt_zman]

In my corporate opinion, it's the cheap way out. No warranty, higher overhaul and hot section costs, higher maintenance costs, terrible resale values, etc. It doesn't make any sense to me to pay MORE (big money too) to put off the required maintenance. I've only flown a few MORE airplanes, but I have never seen temps and torques match, they always seem to light hotter, and they cost alot more money to fix when they break.

Look at what Garrett did, they put a program in place to replace certain parts of the engine to extend TBO's and still support the engine. Pratt never did this for a reason.

Also, I've heard for quite some time that Pratt was evaluating extending TBO's, per a supported program, to eliminate the MORE market. If this happens, all of the engines on the MORE program will be virtually worthless, if they aren't already.

 

[capt_zman]

In my corporate opinion, it's the cheap way out. No warranty, higher overhaul and hot section costs, higher maintenance costs, terrible resale values, etc. It doesn't make any sense to me to pay MORE (big money too) to put off the required maintenance. I've only flown a few MORE airplanes, but I have never seen temps and torques match, they always seem to light hotter, and they cost alot more money to fix when they break.

Look at what Garrett did, they put a program in place to replace certain parts of the engine to extend TBO's and still support the engine. Pratt never did this for a reason.

Also, I've heard for quite some time that Pratt was evaluating extending TBO's, per a supported program, to eliminate the MORE market. If this happens, all of the engines on the MORE program will be virtually worthless, if they aren't already.

 

[100-1/2]

ProPilot Mag did a survey last year and it opened my eyes on the interworkings between Pratt and "Authorized Repair and Overhaul Facilities". You have to seperate the issues into Factory, Repair and Overhaul Shops. A "repair" shop is likely authorized to do minor inspection and repair work on the motor and occassionally a HSI. "Overhaul" Shops usually focus on Major repairs, HSI's and Zero timing motors whilst passing on minor work unless it is related to warranty repair. Before selecting a shop to repair, inspect or overhaul a motor, you need to do your home-work, research the company to find out just how much and what Pratt authorizes that shop to do "under the PW name" and most importantly, how often do they complete that type of work and how frequently must customers return for service on incorrect and/or incomplete work (warranty)? Compare apples to apples and oranges to oranges based on the work needed and the right facility for the job. Factories make new engines and are good at making new engines. They don't do a lot of technical support outside of the motor core. That is up to repair shops to effectively connect the motor to the airframe and many are great at this while being incompetent at overhaul/inspection issues. Likely, you will only have to do your research once if it is thorough enough. Once you find the right shop that has been around awhile and has happy customers, they are not likely going anywhere and will be around for your next scheduled maintenance and/or anomoly. Yes, there is always a time pressure and cost analysis that seems to drive a decision making process and certaintly should be weighed. Save a buck today and buy a rug tomorrow to replace all the hair you pull out in frustration and stress. Short cut shop saves you a week or two now but how much of a hangar queen will she be later and of course just after that local warranty runs out?

Seems like everyone was a Pratt fixer in the 90's and likely by the huge campaign PW went on to make and support their motors as the most common and dependable motor for Turboprops. I fly garrett, pratt, GE and RR. I love the sweet special sounds they all make and really have no preference for any but slant partially for a pair of Garrett Sisters. I have had good and bad experiences with all of them. In flight, in the hangar and in my bottom line. My job as a pilot is to keep them purring and give them a break when its cold or hot and high. As a Manager, I aim to maintain a great degree of mission readiness and prosporous bottom line.

 

[Headwind]

You may have warranty problems with Pratt no matter who does the work. Example: You get an OH by Dallas Airmotive - the warranty is for their workmanship. If a Pratt part breaks it becomes Pratt warranty. The problems we have had were with Pratt. Pratt (not someone authorized by Pratt) did the OH. Pratt also did the HOT's!! They will delay you for several months - They will lie to you - They will play games with you about warranty to no end and the meter on their rental engine is ticking. AGAIN I WILL SAY THAT ANY COMPANY WOULD NEED TO WORK HARD TO MISTREAT A CUSTOMER THE WAY WE HAVE BEEN TREATED BY PRATT.