Which path would you choose?

[Guam360]

If the 135 gig is a:
1. crew environment and,
2. turbine,(multi)

I would go for the 135.

second choice would be the Total time gig, 1500 in a year.

you alresdy have the degree, get out there and get some real flying experience.

flight instruction...blah, blah, blah.....?

 

[bobbysamd]

Pipeline jobs

Everyone talks about getting a pipeline job - as if these jobs are easy to get and will fall into your lap. Truth is, they are as hard to get as a commuter jobs. There are just soooooo many low-timers (and a few higher-timers, too) trying to get what are really very few jobs. You see these jobs advertised in such pubs as Air Jobs Digest and Trade-a-Plane. You apply, and never hear anything.

Just a little perspective to keep in mind. Instructing is realy the easiest entry-level job to get.

 

[350DRIVER]

lancair1-
Since "we" were in such agreement concerning the "gun issue" I thought I would lend my $.02-lol (maybee u won't be so "agreeable" concerning this issue)....I would reccomend highly "IF" you can go the CFI/CFII route do it since most if not all employers are going to want to see that you have instructed to build "experience" THEN latch on with a 135 operator for your multi-engine flight "experience"....I am 23 years of age and fortunately have over 440 hours of turbine time logged as well as a pretty nice 135 company record.(training, flight checks, etc..) I went this route and for the most part I have been pretty pleased with my progress since my dream has always been to fly for a major airline one day BUT with todays hiring I think I have a veryyyyy long way to go now however I do strongly feel that when that day does present itself (IF it does) that I will have a pretty solid and well diversified background in aviation as well as a nice resume... The best part (in MY opinion) of 135 flying is the vast and overall experience & knowledge which you will gain in somewhat of a "standardized" environment working as a "crew"..I have found that this has helped shape ME into a pretty well rounded pilot. However with that being said I still feel that the only reason that I was given the opportunity in the first place was due to my CFI/CFI tickets since I do feel that this did open the door- You are still going to need a tad of "luck" since most 135 operators now seem to be shying away from the lower time pilots for right seat gigs due to the wonderful insurance reqt's which seem to be the deciding factor these days. Our company for example is "now"looking" for SIC's with prior turbine experience as well as prior 135 flying preferred since once a pilot hits the magic 135 PIC minimums they do expect you to upgrade immediately without any delay due to the jets that we also have on our ticket. There are still many many 135 operators out there however that are still hiring low time pilots for SIC gigs- IF you play your cards right then I see absolutely no reason why you wouldn't be able to land a 135 SIC job at a relatively low amount of flight time....

Once again this was "MY" choice of routes to go and as you see their are many many ways to obtain your ultimate goal(s) which mostly depends on YOUR personal preference, I just thought the route I picked would leave me sitting pretty after awhile (still to be seen).... IF you do choose to fly 135 on your days off you can still flight instruct which will help you build your total "experience" time up and before you know it you will then be right at 135 PIC minimums and comfortable with the upgrade as well as being a "qualified" 135 PIC-

At 23 years of age I like my odds and whatever route you do choose "I wish you wind at your six and dreams come true at your twelve"....

C H E E R S

3 5 0

any questions that I may be able to answer ask away.....

 

[350DRIVER]

The 135 SIC choice is not a good one. You need PIC and PIC multi. It also helps to be paid

As much as I usually "agree" with Bobbysamd in 99.99% of his posts I must disagree with the philosophy pertaining to 135 SIC time as "useless" and "not a good choice".....

1)In "most" cases YOU (atleast I) are working for highly respected, safe, and known 135 flight department who ensure that the person occupying the right seat IS properly trained, and is a safe & competent pilot.- I do not agree that "multi-pic" is that important to pass up a part 135 SIC position due to the fact that quite afew 135 outfits are operating equipment that do NOT require a type rating which in return YOU are able to log ALL 91 legs as PIC time. (ex- King Air 90's, 100,s, etc, etc,etc..yada yada...(IF anything this "experience" is looked upon as "valued" and a "good choice"...

2) Also the "91 legs" you will be given the opportunity to fly left seat in turboprop equipment which I do not believe that many other opportunities are out there for "low time pilots" to be able to not only log PIC turbine time BUT also the "experience" factor which one obtains is "priceless" in my opinion..

3) I cannot see any better multi-engine PIC time than having "turbine" time in the logbooks. (my opinion)....

4) POTENTIAL for future upgrade is pretty good as well as better and "heavier" equipment to follow. As soon as I hit the "magic" 1200TT and other 135 PIC minimums are met I WILL take the 135 PIC check ride. Also the jets which we operate I will soon transition into the SIC position in the very near future. I am not aware of "too many" "lower time" pilots being given this opportunity...

5) I can't see how flying as a SIC for a 135 operation can be looked at as a "negative" by any future employers IF the position is "legit" and the SIC is properly trained as well as a formal 135 SIC check ride passed....

ALL of our SIC's are paid a very fair amount of money per trip, per diem, expenses all paid, etc, etc, etc,...... I do realize some 135 outfitters are "renting" the right seat out EX> Tab Express which I cannot see a pilot "BUYING" or "RENTING" the seat out..... IF you are fortunate enough to find a 135 company willing to train and PAY you for your services and in my opinion I would jump at that opportunity in a heart beat...

The networking that you can also accomplish flying 135 in my opinion are "priceless" and your name will get out there and plenty more opportunities will present themselves...

look VERY carefully at this "possible" opportunity that you may or may not have before making any immediate choices pertaining to your future.- I strongly feel that in business especially in aviation you will have plenty of competition and it is ultimately up to YOU to make yourself stick out and more marketable, more "qualified" than the next guy which could be a factor in a future job offer as well as you obtaining your ultimate goals... Right now supply is well exceeding the demands so you can most definately expect fierce competition in the job market and in my opinion 135 time is just as good IF not better than anything else out there at this point in "your" ballgame...

Once again good luck to you..

C H E E R S
3 5 0

 

[lancair1]

Thanks for all the great advice!

I may end up re-hashing a few of the topics here, but:

I have often heard that in the first 1000 hours the seat time is necessary, but that it doesn't really matter what you are flying.

Does anyone have an opinion on the value of sic/some pic time in a 402 versus flight time instructing or flying pipeline? Or does the opinion above stand true that I just need the time and experience of sitting in a seat for a thousand?

If you had 200, and were offered 500 in the next year as 135 sic in a 402 would you take that over flying 1,000 in little cessnas?

 

[1900cpt]

"If you had 200, and were offered 500 in the next year as 135 sic in a 402 would you take that over flying 1,000 in little cessnas?"

Tough call, when could you upgrade in the 402?? PIC time is important. Flying around in "little cessnas"....what kind of flying is that...pipeline, cfi? 1000 hrs is a lot of time, especially if its pic...small cessna or not.

135 time is also great....make sure the sic time in the 402 is legit and loggable too. Be glad that you have a few options....some people dont have any choice...or very few right now.

How about the 135 gig....with some instructing on the side. That way you get the 135....you learn a lot teaching, and all the teaching is pic!!

1900cpt

 

[JediNein]

Pipeline Gig

Howdy!
The local pipeline outfit was hiring last week. They had a 3 line ad in the local newspaper. That was it.

The ad is not in the paper this week so I am assuming poor Mike has a 5" stack of resumes on his desk.

Of course with that kind of a job, the one that gets it usually shows up ready to work at 4 AM in the morning.

350Driver, are you at Airnet?

Thanks!
Jedi Nein

 

[Timebuilder]

I don't want to start another p***ing match, but unless the 402 job meets the requirements for SIC, then none of the non-pic time there will be loggable. If you have your multi, the part 91 dead legs can be logged as sole manipulator PIC time.

Assuming you are in your twenties, you have the time available to really learn aviation as an instructor. You are not "under the gun" as I am, trying to make a career in the limited time available.

I'd instruct, get the ATP, and as the industry recovers in the next 18 months you will be in a great position to forge ahead. A good amount of experience as a CFI, II, MEI will serve you well at interview time. As I mentioned Airnet looks specifically for instructor experience.

135 SIC time is valuable, but only if it meets the SIC requirements. I have TONS of unloggable time in a Navajo as a copilot. I only did it to get the loggable, and valuable, PIC time on those dead legs. The company was not so busy that I had difficulty working the charter around my flight students. The students ALWAYS came first, not the 1.0 of PIC I would log as a part of my service to the charter Co.

In your situation, ask yourself this: will I fly in that turbine equipment fifteen to twenty hours a week? Will I be able to log an hour of PIC turbine every day? Will the boss tell me that he is looking at me as a future captain? Will he tell me what I will make as a captain? Are his present captains happy to be there, or is it a case of least of the possible evils?

If only a part time schedule is available, perhaps your best course is to instruct and do the charter work part-time. Maximize your possibilities.

 

[bobbysamd]

SIC time

350Driver, point taken. Timebuilder, point taken.

It is always easy to deal in absolutes. Now, if the 135 SIC is 100% legit and offers a righteous chance to upgrade to the left seat, that's another matter. I also agree with 350's point about the turbine. But, if I had to choose between a job in which I can log real PIC multi and the legit SIC turbine job, I'd still take the PIC multi job, everything else being equal. But, looking back on my experiences, that's what I would've done.

Sometimes, these are tough decisions and come in shades of gray and are not black-and-white. Of course, as we all know, aviation business doesn't always deal in absolutes. <sigh> You have to think about it hard, get input, make a decision and hope it works out for the best. For that matter, that's true for every job. You interview, you're on your best behavior, the employer will put his best foot forward, and you hope you've made the right decision.

Good luck with your decision.

 

[ILS JNKY]

options

Well 3&4 sound good, but what is the real trade off>

I have 500 hours at this time , this is what i'am planning fly 4.3hrs
per day starting june 15th through jan15 2003 and this will total 1500 hrs , give or take a few, offier to split twin time and cross country time, teach.

Eat sleep and drink flying just to get done , then go find an air cargo company and fly all night

So what ever it takes to get done , it may not be as direct as i want it , but one thing is for shure i will get don .

Best of luck to you and just keep chipping a way at it , and before you realize it your there.

 

[Britpilot]

Get multi engine pic, nuff said

 

[Caveman]

Take two pilots with 500TT. One rides in the right seat of a Navajo. It is not loggable 135 time. He flies about 10 hours a week and gets to log 2 hours a week as PIC on the empty legs. In 2 years that pilot now has 700TT and 200 ME.

The other pilot chooses flight instruction and also flies 10 hours a week of which 8 are in a 152 and 2 are in a Seminole. In two years that pilot now has 1500TT and 200ME.

Which one is more competitive? Pilot A still can't even get a job as PIC with the company he has worked for for 2 years. Pilot B is eligible to get his ATP, can act as PIC for a 135 company, and when competitive hiring minimums come back down would probably be offered an interview at most regionals.

Having said that, I've already discovered that aviation is a capricious and sometimes cruel mistress. You do everything by the book and it still could bite you in the ass. Other times you take a chance and color outside the lines and it works out fine.

Of my friends that were flight instructors most of those that stuck around and got their 1200/200 are either out of work or are back flight instructing. Two survived the furloughs at Eagle and COEX. Eight did not (2 from Eagle, 6 from COEX). Another was furloughed from Skyway (just recalled).

I have several other friends that quit flight instructing with about 500-600TT to pursue nontraditional opportunities.

2 went with a freight company that needed somebody in the right seat of a Bandit. I castigated them for what I perceived to be a poor choice. I tried to get them to stick with flight instructing. I was their boss and their friend so I had some influence. Nevertheless off they went. Both of them are now still employed with 121 carriers and are loving life (1 at CMR/1 at SkyWest).

Another one managed to find a corporate job on a light jet. Never underestimate the benefit of networking. The main reason he got the job was that he and the Chief Pilot of that jet were smoking buddies. Seriously. There were at least 4 other pilots that occasionally flew for the guy and all of them equally or more qualified than the guy that got the job, but none of them smoked. In the course of burning one together out on the ramp 3 or 4 times a day they developed a friendship and it eventually got him a job.

Another picked what I thought was a well thought out and smart choice. He enlisted in the local F-16 guard unit as an MP and started night classes at the local ERAU remote campus. He quit his CFI job and took one flying a Bonanza once or twice a week for a local construction company. They paid him a nice salary and he was free to finish his education. The plan was to finish his degree and apply for a commission through the guard. I spoke with him at length and guided him to ask the right questions of the guard unit and to evaluate the realities of his choice. Frankly, I thought he made a good one. It was a long term plan. Right now he is somewhere in SW Asia humping an M-16 around an airbase perimeter. Thanks Osama.

Another guy quit instructing to take the now vacant Bonanza job. He is retired from another career and doesn't mind hanging out in the area until his dream job with Skywest becomes available. Where he lives is a Skywest domicile.

Another took a job as an A&P with a firefighting outfit. He just wasn't interested in flight instructing. He flies himself and his toolbox in the company Aztec to wherever the tankers are and provides mechanical support. The last guy that did his job is now the Capt in a DC6 tanker and within a couple of years he should be too.

Me? I'm boring. I flight instructed until I had 2500TT and then applied to my regional of choice. I was hired and then promptly went on strike, was fired, furloughed and then recalled. I was questioned on my choices too. Why wait for Comair for 8 months when you could be at COEX or Eagle in 30 days? What about Comair's labor problems? What are you going to do if they go on strike? All valid questions but I didn't think Eagle or COEX were good choices for me so I waited. I'm looking like a genius at this point but it was more good fortune than brilliant planning.

I guess the moral of the story is.... who knows? Traditional usually works, but not always. With apologies to Frost the road less travelled is sometimes a deadend. Once in a while though it has a pot of gold at the end of it. Try to make informed choices, rely on whatever guides you spiritually, and just do the best you can. Add in a little karma and living by the golden rule and everything will work out just the way it's supposed to. Maybe.......

 

[bobbysamd]

Cruel mistress

And, then, you take someone like me who had something like 3200 total and 800 of multi when commuters were last hiring in 1991, with most of that time earned through paid work and not through P-F-T or time-building gimmicks. Competitive mins were at least 1500 total and 500 of multi. I did everything by the book, Kit Darby's book and others. The best I could do with that was get (sometimes) better instructing jobs.

Cruel mistress, indeed.

Sometimes all you can do is think through your plans carefully, do the best you can, and get lucky.

 

[350DRIVER]

I have to say that even from a "time building" standpoint which I am starting to see a trend of opinions suggesting to go the route that will get you "there" the quickest- Well where is there.-? IF for some reason you DO choose to go the 135 SIC route YOU can still instruct on the weekends as well as your off days.( all PIC time.)- It seems like alot of the opinions regarding the 135 SIC "debate" is using the Navajo as the 135 "poster" aircraft- we must NOT forget that a very large amount of King Air's as well as other well known turboprops are being flown daily (and quite popular) in 135 operations. Most of your larger 135 flight departments have a much diversified fleet with advancement opportunities for someone like yourself down the line. IS 135 SIC time so much better & more respected than any other flying you could choose at your point in your career.??- <NO..however this has opened quite a few doors for me as well as growing in knowledge & "experience"....- Whatever you choose I truly do wish you luck and I am somewhat confident that IF you choose the 135 SIC position that you won't be dissapointed in your choice.

Jedi- AirNet does NOT operate King Air's....

3 5 0
Lanc- will answer the message..

 

[avbug]

I'm very disappointed that not a soul has addressed the best answer (albeit unoffered). Clearly, blackmail is the way to go. Set up the boss you want to work for, in a compromising situation, get photos, and let nature get it's course. Save enough cash in reserve to bump off the boss if things get out of hand, and have a ball.

Flight time you can log in your book; write it in, make it up; it's worthless.

As always experience can't be bought.

Climb the great curtain all you want, but at the end of the day, the road most travelled isn't always the best one. Find the one that works for you, not the one that works for everyone else. Get employed first and foremost; a job in the hand is worth a dozen in the help wanted column. Next, be a choosey beggar.

If you do get a choice, take the one that gives you the best expeirence. Not just hours, not just the job, but the one that will benifit you personally the most as a human being, aviator, pilot, and all around good guy or gal.

Have a ball.