Which is faster?

[AC560]

Thanks GV ... there's no argument we're being exposed to the increased radiation ... just whether someone can correlate pathology with it. My interest in this subject is genuine, as it affects me also.

There doesn't seem to be any medical issues with any of the Concorde pilots and some of those guys logged a lot of hours FL500+.

 

[time builder]

Using climb power in the BE99, you usually get better than cruise speed in a 500 ft/min climb with climb power until you're travel limited at say 15000. I'm sure most turboprops behave similarly.
My main considerations are departure proceedure (direction and climb requirements), and winds aloft.
Don't be like the guy I know who got busted for climbing at 500 fpm with a steeper climb gradient required, even though he was in VMC.

 

[Sig]

The Metro would almost always show the same rate of climb at 140 and 180 KIAS.

Not to sully a dang fine thread (thanks for the fantastic post, GV), but I have myself an idear:

This was demonstrated to me in a King Air 200 by a 757 AA CA. He spoke for literally ten minutes straight, saying this is a perfect piece of information which, when used, separates the pilots from the aviators.

He kept calling it L/D Max, L/D Max... I understand the drag curve and performance, and where you can get the dreaded bimodal distribution (you get the same climb at two speeds), but there is no free lunch in physics. Those two humps will come together at some regime.

My question (BBB or GV or any other Carl Sagan Gene. E. Yuss) is this: What is the key to causing this? It happens on a 757, it happens on a Metro, it happens on my Dash 8, it happens on BE20s.

L/D Max with TWO humps (local maxima, makes sense, just a bit o' caculus... ) but what be the variables that are germane to just this behavior?

FWIW: You can get THREE speeds with exact rates on the Dash8 100- it depends on how much you rely on deck angle for climb versus airspeed and how dense the atmosphere is (125kt, 160, and 192/3Kt get you 1000' fpm until about 5000 feet, and the high number decays to maintain the rate until meeting at 160 around 10-12). But wait- I thought we clumbed up there because of excess thrust? Is it parasite drag curve over an induced drag curve ALL under the excess thrust available, with the vector of thrust boogering up the numbers and creating the very low number, or do the forces involved just magically mesh?? Or do I need to have a glass of STFU and play pilot in my little trash 8 and forget about it?

**Gee, the answer is right in front of me. Buck-60 is the profile for climb, usually getting 1000 or so... The magic number seems to be +/- 35 knots or so and that's where the neat stuff happens. Makes a HUGE difference if you're flying the wrong way on the initial departure (SLOOWWW GS), or if you're in a hustle doing a parabolic to get home early.

 

[Coool Hand Luke]

Thanks GV ... there's no argument we're being exposed to the increased radiation ... just whether someone can correlate pathology with it. My interest in this subject is genuine, as it affects me also.

BBB

With that beer belly I think radiation exposure at high-level cruise is the least of your worries. (how do you get/keep a medical with that anyway?)

 

[MalteseX]

Just wondering, given a constant power setting, say at an N1 of MCT, is it faster to climb to your flight level asap or to fly as fast as possible during the climb while maintaining a 500 fpm climb?

Does anyone have any data to support either argument? It seems like pilots that are behind schedule like to decrease the rate of climb and increase the airspeed on the way up. My hunch is that it would be faster to climb on up to cruise where the engines are more efficient and your TAS is higher.

Disregarding winds (or assuming winds are 0) and fuel consumption (you have all the money you need , or hedged your fuel in 1999--or Uncle Sam is paying for gas and you have BIG tanks (KC-10));
Flying at "barber pole" speed throughout the climb. Level off at 27500 to 29000 (depending on temp from STD) and cruise there --where a turbofan will get the greatest TAS at barber pole. Climb at best rate .......

 

[~~~^~~~]

Alex - If anyone mentioned the effect of True Air Speed, I missed it. As a helo driver, it is worth remembering. Roughly, you can figure TAS as Indicated Airspeed * ( 1.0 plus 2% of yor Flight Level)

So at FL180 a 300 knot cruise gives you 408 KTAS
At FL330 a 300 knot indicated cruise gives you 498 KTAS

and so on until you realize the Concorde was only indicating around 450 in cruise while scooting along over 1,000 miles per hour.

As a bored RJ pilot who is usually trying to make up lost time, I've found the published climb profile not only works well for fuel burn, it also gets you to altitude the most efficiently where you can enjoy the much higher cruise speed. The CRJ200 published profile is a 290 knot IAS climb until M 0.74. I have found there is variation. A heavier airplane climbs better faster and a lighter airplane can climb better at a slower IAS.

The mention of L/D Max comes into play here - the wing is most efficient at a certain angle of attack, which is roughly speed and load dependent. Also, other factors come into play. The cowling on almost all turbofan and turbojet engines acts as a compressor. The air actually slows and increases pressure before the fan scoops it through the bypass. It then expands and increases speed as it decreases pressure. The more air you can shove in the cowling, the more air you have to work with, the more fuel you can mix with it and the more thrust you can make. In addition the Supercritical wings on many turbine aircraft do a lousy job at making lift at slow speeds.

So flying on profile is about as fast as you can go in many airplanes. If the trip is short you might come out slightly better at a "barber pole" climb, but on most jets the specified climb profile will get you to altitude most efficiently where you can really haul.....

The airplane I fly is limited at 330 to 335 KIAS. At 10,000 feet that is 396. I like the flight much better at 370, which even at a 280KIAS cruise works out to 487. Saving money and going faster.

 

[MalteseX]

Just wondering, given a constant power setting, say at an N1 of MCT, is it faster to climb to your flight level asap or to fly as fast as possible during the climb while maintaining a 500 fpm climb?

Does anyone have any data to support either argument? It seems like pilots that are behind schedule like to decrease the rate of climb and increase the airspeed on the way up. My hunch is that it would be faster to climb on up to cruise where the engines are more efficient and your TAS is higher.

It's faster to increase the airspeed on the way up--but it will burn more gas... maybe much more gas depending on your type of aircraft. Climb profiles are built to give speed, but include a more beneficial fuel burn. If you want to factor in time ONLY, climb at max airspeed.

 

[~~~^~~~]

If you want to factor in time ONLY, climb at max airspeed.

I disagree unless you are talking about a trip in a C172. Aircraft that can exceed their max operating speed in level flight will almost always benefit by getting to their cruise altitude faster so that they can attain a higher true airspeed faster. Even in the turbocharged Beechcraft, Mooney's and Pipers I've flown in General Aviation, this holds true.

Delaying your climb in a jet will not only increase your fuel burn, it will increase your block time as well. From your profile I can not tell if you are flying anything with an FMS, but if you have a FMS, plug in your non standard climb and see what the results are. The FMS's are usually a little optimistic on climb performance on the RJ's, but even so you can see for yourself the effect on block time.

For us a 330 KT climb increases trip time by 5 to 12 or 15 minutes depending on altitude, temperatures, and trip length.

If the airplane has a climb profile - it is optimal.

 

[Big Beer Belly]

With that beer belly I think radiation exposure at high-level cruise is the least of your worries. (how do you get/keep a medical with that anyway?)

I'm a right SEXY b-a-s-t-a-r-d, ain't I?


BBB

 

[MalteseX]

For us a 330 KT climb increases trip time by 5 to 12 or 15 minutes depending on altitude, temperatures, and trip length.

If the airplane has a climb profile - it is optimal.

I can't speak for all aircraft, only the jets I have flown --- and I was being overly simplistic. But the climb profile in aircraft I have flown did not give the highest TAS--it gave the highest specific fuel range.

This may not be the case for other aircraft.

Climbing so you attain the highest TAS in the shortest amount of time is the way to get to a destination quicker (disregarding wind) If you take wind into account, then the highest GS. In the aircraft I have flown, the climb performance was great enough to overcome the effects of the lower TAS at lower altitudes--so climbing at "barber pole" was the way to go (still got 3000 fpm at low alts and 1500 to 2000 fpm in the 20's).

However, at 27500 or so, the "barber pole" IAS limit was transferred to the Mach limit. As you hold the mach limit and climb higher, the TAS decreases. So for normal turbofan transport aircraft, the fastest climb to approx FL 280 and then flying your Mach limit, will give the highest TAS attainable for the conditions that day. (ie. For a given Mach number, TAS decreases with increases in altitude)

If winds are to be taken into account, then a wind correction for your altitudes can be applied to determine what the effects are on you GS at various altitudes.

I "flight tested" this once flying from Europe back to the mid western US in 1990. One of our company aircraft (identical aircraft, and fuel load) departed 20 minutes ahead of us. We were on identical flight plan with the 20 minute separation. I changed the flight plan to level at 280 and stay there for the entire flight. The first aircraft departed 28 minutes ahead of us and flew the flight plan and recommended profiles. We flew at "barber pole" and 280 the entire way. We passed them at about somewhere in the mid atlantic ( I don't remember the longitude). Anyway, we arrived 18 minutes ahead of them (a total gain of 46 minutes)--and neither aircraft had any ATC delays, we had top ATC priority for those flights. We had both higher TAS at FL280 as well as more favorable winds, since we were headed westbound. But we burned nearly 40K lbs more fuel than they did (almost 1000 lbs per minute gain).

This may not be the same for your aircraft --as shown by your FMS; so I guess the answer to the original poster's question is that ---"it's probably aircraft dependent."

 

[Big Beer Belly]

Not to sully a dang fine thread (thanks for the fantastic post, GV), but I have myself an idear:

This was demonstrated to me in a King Air 200 by a 757 AA CA. He spoke for literally ten minutes straight, saying this is a perfect piece of information which, when used, separates the pilots from the aviators.

He kept calling it L/D Max, L/D Max... I understand the drag curve and performance, and where you can get the dreaded bimodal distribution (you get the same climb at two speeds), but there is no free lunch in physics. Those two humps will come together at some regime.

My question (BBB or GV or any other Carl Sagan Gene. E. Yuss) is this: What is the key to causing this? It happens on a 757, it happens on a Metro, it happens on my Dash 8, it happens on BE20s.

Induced drag ... at least on a swept wing, symmetric airfoil. The Blue Angels usually demonstrate rather extreme angle of attack slow flight ... albeit with excess thrust available to accelerate in level flight ... bottom line, the same thrust setting will produce 130kt flight (high AOA,, high induced drag) or high subsonic/supersonic flight (with corresponding low AOA, low induced drag) ... discounting bow wave/transonic drag spikes.

Been many moons since I taught any of this though. YMMV.

BBB

 

[~~~^~~~]

Climbing so you attain the highest TAS in the shortest amount of time is the way to get to a destination quicker

We were on identical flight plan with the 20 minute separation. I changed the flight plan to level at 280 and stay there for the entire flight. The first aircraft departed 28 minutes ahead of us and flew the flight plan and recommended profiles. We flew at "barber pole" and 280 the entire way.

This may not be the same for your aircraft --as shown by your FMS; so I guess the answer to the original poster's question is that ---"it's probably aircraft dependent."

We agree.

You are right, there is a "sweet spot" between FL290 and FL310 where a given Mach will translate into a higher TAS. The exact location of the sweet spot depends on temperature - sounds like you nailed it

 

[~~~^~~~]

If I was flying an aircraft that couldn't get out of the thirties, I'd climb at the fastest speed that would still give me a 500 fpm climb. Your manufacturer's cruise climb speeds are normally predicated on the most cost effective climb that will allow you to reach the maximum range capabilities of your aircraft, that is to say saving fuel, not time.

GV

~

I know you guys love him.... but he's wrong. Not to pick nits, but many First Officers have the wrong idea about how to get the shortest block time from the airplane and this comes up more frequently than it should.

The speed that gives you the best climb profile and gets you efficiently to the altitude where you can go fast turns out being the fastest. Doing 330 in the climb out of 10,000 feet (396TAS) is not quicker than climbing at 290 at FL280 (452TAS).

His GV and 550 perform a whole lot better than most commercial aircraft operating near max gross weight, so he probably does not notice the difference the way a pilot of a relatively low performance RJ does.

 

[Muddauber]

The speed that gives you the best climb profile and gets you efficiently to the altitude where you can go fast turns out being the fastest.

That's not what my FMC says...


Muddy

 

[~~~^~~~]

Ok, lets try the other question folks have a hard time getting.

Which decends faster, a heavy aircraft, or a lighter aircraft?

(Lets just say a 747 at max gross, or at a weight a couple of hundred thousand pounds less)