Which corp./airliners have "limited nosewheel steering" through the rudder pedals?

[Flying Illini]

Which corp./airliners have "limited nosewheel steering" through the rudder pedals?

Our company is considering a "no take-offs from the right seat" policy (and no, we don't switch seats so this policy would end my most favorite part of the flight).
The logical follow-up question to this policy is, "If thousands or corp. flights depart daily, and thousands of airline flights depart daily, you figure at least half of those departures are from the right seat. So why is it that the airlines and other corp. departments conduct *safe* departures everyday from the right seat, but we are unable to?"
The only answer that was returned (initially) was that "most airliners have limited nosewheel steering through the rudder pedals." I didn't believe that but I don't know. So there is my question. Is that true? I'm not talking about when the rudder becomes effective, but actual limited nosewheel steering.
Our current policy has the transfer of controls occurring at 80kts. This policy has worked safely and effectively for the past two years that I've been there and it worked for years before that.

So, I guess I'm looking for two things:
1) What aircraft actually have limited nosewheel steering? Are there any?
2) What type of policy does your company/airline use?

 

[banned username 2]

The Citation III had limited nosewheel travel with the rudders, I can't remember how many degrees though (been about 7 years)... The Lear had only rudder steering (no tiller)...

As you know, the Falcons you are flying have no steering available throught the rudder pedals...

Most Corporate Operations I know of do no flying from the right seat... Seats are typically swapped every leg...

 

[Checks]

I dont have any jet experience but transfering the controls at 80kts seems kinda strange to me. Then again, what do I know?

 

[banned username 2]

I dont have any jet experience but transfering the controls at 80kts seems kinda strange to me. Then again, what do I know?

They don't, the Captain just runs the tiller till 80kts of so, the F/O would do everything else if it is his leg...

 

[capt_zman]

The G4 has rudder steering available and the Hawker does not. Only 1 operator that I worked for did right seat takeoffs in the beechjet, which is steering via rudder pedals.

 

[pilotyip]

The DC-9 has nosewheel steering with the rudder pedals, but the DA-20 does not. In the DA-20, we transfer controls at 80 kts. We have a FAA approved procedure in our DA-20 AOM to do this and it works very well in practice. The 80 kts control transfer was used in the P-3 and the L-188 it worked fine there also. The Captain is the only pilot who can abort the takeoff and keeps his hands on the power levers until he calls V1. Again, this was as the same as the L-188..

 

[Clutch_Cargo]

"most airliners have limited nosewheel steering through the rudder pedals."

I think this is a true statement but a poor excuse for a policy change. Has your company had an incident/accident related to a loss of directional control on departure?

I have flown with corporations, charter companies and airlines and none of them has had a "no right-seat TO" policy, even when the aircraft didn't have nosewheel steering available to the right seat.

I've always thought there was more concern about reject/abort procedures. I have flown for one airline that only allowed the captain to call the abort. Personally, I think that is a bad procedure and a band-aid fix for poor training. I understand the concern is that a lack of experience or poor judgement could lead to a bad call and a possible overrun but I don't think that forcing the FO to call out the malfunction and wait for the captain to make a decision makes for a safer TO.

IMHO, properly trained, either pilot should be able to make the TO and/or call the abort.

cc

 

[kevdog]

Most if not all transport category aircraft have limited nosewheel steering through the rudder pedals... ~6-8 degree versus ~78 degrees with tiller.

 

[semperfido]

we only fly acft from left. all my corp exp is with this type of operation.
when new or less experienced pilot comes on board it would work like this:

1. FSI Initial PIC Qualified
2. Do right seat duties to get comfortable in acft
3. After reasonable time, transition to left seat (doesn't mean Captain).
This time is variable from person to person. Once everyone concerned is satisfied with airman's performance and the individual thinks they are ready, then move to left seat and swap legs is accomplished.

 

[flx757]

I guess it depends on your definition of "limited".

On the MD-80 the rudder pedals command up to 17 degrees either side of center (limited technically, if compared to the full authority of the system) , then the tiller has command to 82 degrees either side of center. We feel that 17 degrees is plenty of nosewheel steering authority to allow for a right seat takeoff. In fact, our procedure calls for the PNF to apply slight forward pressure to assure adequate nosewheel steering authority at low speeds (below 80 kts).

However, for a right seat takeoff, once the power is set (autothrottles on), the Captain leaves his hands on the power levers until V1, since the Captain performs all aborts. But the book says to "Use the rudder pedal steering to maintain alignment", so obviously we feel that there is plenty of nosewheel steering authority available through the rudder pedals to allow for a right seat takeoff.

 

[CapnVegetto]

The Citation has just plain ol' rudder steering, nothing electric at all, but our company doesn't do any flying from the right seats. Copilots switch seats on empty legs and fly (with the captain's approval of course).

The Lears that I've flown, (25/35/55) have electric nosewheel steering. You push a 'steer lock' button to turn it on, control it with the rudder pedals, and it works from either side. The Lear can be flown or taxied from either side. After you land, once you get slowed down, (and MAKING SURE your nosewheel is straight), you turn the steering on for taxi. You can also steer w/o the power steering from either side, but it's harder.

In the CRJ, there's a tiller on the captain's side. All you do is transfer the controls at 80 knots after landing, and on takeoff, the captain lines up the plane on the centerline and gives the controls to the FO. There is limited rudder pedal steering, and it's enough to control it on takeoff roll. The faster you're going, the more effective it is, so it's easy once you get rolling. It's possible to taxi a CRJ without the tiller, but it's ugly.

 

[Flying Illini]

Thanks for the responses.
Clutch Cargo: No, we have had no incidents or accidents resulting from the current practice (knock on wood). This came out of the blue yesterday.
And Falcon Capt. is correct. Captain is on the tiller till 80 kt callout. FO does everything else when it's his leg.

I have a meeting on Thurs. with the CP to discuss this or alternatives to this. I really appreciate the responses and hopefully we can come up with something that satisfies both of our concerns.

Again, thanks. And for those of you who haven't responded, please keep the posts coming.

 

[ilinipilot]

Hey Flying Illini,
How is it going there? You sticking around, moving on, etc. I miss those softball days that for sure. Anytime you are in MKE on a layover call me.

Take care

DDM

 

[ArcticFlier]

The mighty Metro has nosewheel steering through the pedals only. (It has a park button that increases steering authority if held down for 7(?) seconds). The Brasilia has steering through both the tiller and pedals, though less through the pedals. The RJ has been covered.

We had some problems with nosewheel hardovers in the Metro, and therefore we were to do our takeoffs with the nosewheel steering off. Most captains would leave the steering on until you had some rudder authority (airspeed alive)and then turn it off. We still split the legs, though.


AF

 

[FreeFaller]

How would anyone stay current without takeoffs, flying and landings??
I've never heard of a company keeping half of their pilots "out of the loop". Even if you don't switch seats, airliners don't, there HAS to be a safe way to have the right seat pilot takeoff even if he doesn't have control of nosewheel steering. What does FSI, Simuflight, mfg. et. al. say about this for your aircraft? Limited nosewheel travel applies to both set of rudder pedals, so if there is no nosewheel steering on the left it's not on the right, if there IS nosewheel steering only on the left, let the **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED** Captain play with it till airspeed alive or 80 kts.
Good Luck

 

[A Squared]

For what it's worth, the DC-6 has no nosewheel steering with the rudders. Normal takeoffs are made by the F/O all the time. The Captain steers with the tiller to 60 knots then all steering is done with rudder. The only exception is a 3 engine takeoff, where nosewheel steering is done to a higher speed, but 3 engine takeoffs are done by the captain anyway.

 

[Flyeys]

On the ERJ the rudders will turn the nosewheel 5 degrees to either side with a position sensor that disengages the system if you go past 7 degrees. Tiller will go for 71 degrees to either side. 76 total. Most CA only use the tiller in turns

 

[chperplt]

On the ERJ the rudders will turn the nosewheel 5 degrees to either side with a position sensor that disengages the system if you go past 7 degrees. Tiller will go for 71 degrees to either side. 76 total.

The tiller turns 71 degrees, but with the rudder you can get an additional 5 degrees out of it? Are you sure about that?

 

[Headwind]

The steering on the Sabre 65 has rudder control Hyd. steering that works from left or right side. At airspeed alive you turn it off and steer wirh the rudder. You can do a complete flight from either seat.

HEADWIND

 

[I.P. Freley]

Most if not all transport category aircraft have limited nosewheel steering through the rudder pedals

The Saab doesn't.

 

[Nova]

The tiller turns 71 degrees, but with the rudder you can get an additional 5 degrees out of it? Are you sure about that?

Yes..

 

[Ty Webb]

Sounds like some Captains are either greedy or uncomfortable. Every place I have ever flown has had FO's do takeoffs and landings, usually. from the right seat. If you were rated in the aircraft, then you swapped seats.

Once the aircraft is aligned with the centerline and the nosewheel is centered, there isn't much call for the tiller, not in the aircraft I have flown, which on the corporate side includes the Falcon 20, WW24 and Sabreliners.

As for the guy who thinks that Captain aborts are an excuse for poor training- maybe at your company, Chief, but at my airline, FO's are paired with CA upgrades, so the training is virtually the same. . . . and 28 hours of sim time is hardly "poor training"!

I had no problem with it as an FO, and I have no problem with it as a CA. It is the Captain's call, and I think that since we are in the sim twice as often, it makes even more sense to do it that way.

But as for having FO's do no takeoffs or landings? You've got to be kidding. Why don;t they just go ahead and neuter 'em, too.

 

[NOMORERJS]

7 degrees on the 777.................

 

[Snoopy58]

The C-130 rudder pedals aren't connected to the nosewheel at all. Same deal as mentioned above... the left seater rides the tiller until the rudder is effective. The right seat pilots in herks have as few hours as anybody out there flying right seat (200 in pilot training, another 40 or so in qualification training & then to the right seat; upgrade when they have 800 in type), and they do fine making about every other takeoff. The tiller-to-80-knots deal works great & lasts a long time.

 

[Flying Illini]

Well the plan is to still let us do landings (whoop de freakin' do!). I should be happy about that! On rollout I have stayed on the rudder down through 20 kts before it truly became completely ineffective.

Maybe when I go to recurrent in 4 weeks I can just tell the instructor that since I don't do takeoffs that we can eliminate all of those aborts, v1 cuts, t/r deploys, etc. That should shave a whole day off of training! <thick sarcasm>.

We will see what comes of this on thursday...

 

[CapnVegetto]

What company do you work for and who's the dumb$hit that proposed this change and for what reason?

 

[Clutch_Cargo]

As for the guy who thinks that Captain aborts are an excuse for poor training- maybe at your company, Chief, but at my airline, FO's are paired with CA upgrades, so the training is virtually the same. . . . and 28 hours of sim time is hardly "poor training"!

I had no problem with it as an FO, and I have no problem with it as a CA. It is the Captain's call, and I think that since we are in the sim twice as often, it makes even more sense to do it that way.

Whatever, Bud. I wasn't trying to make it personal... as I said it was just my opinion. In my particular case, the training was exactly the same because the FO's were typed and demonstrated the abort. Likewise, FO's were in the sim just as often as the CA's. Not every aircraft model in the fleet had typed FO's but I still believe they could have been trained to adequately make the call. Unfortunately some companies, and I'm not even thinking of my company when I say this, look at FO's as little more than high-speed radio operators and they're given minimal training. That is a shame and that is why I said what I said. I didn't agree with it as an FO or as a CA. Again, it's just my opinion.

As far 28 hours of sim time goes, I can't say what kind of training that might be... it's certainly nice to get that amount of time but what is done with it matters too.

cc

 

[CapnVegetto]

I'm with clutch cargo on this one. Mesa doesn't allow FO's to call abort except for the 'big 4' malfuntions. Fire, Failure, TR deploy, or loss of directional control. I always thought this was stupid when I worked there. FO's and captains took the same training, same oral, and same checkride at Mesa. Same standards, same maneuvers. The CA's was, of course, a little more in depth and a bit more about decision making, but still, in my opinion, the FO was perfectly qualified to make the call.

And another guy made a GREAT point that I'd bring up to the chief pilot. You have to have 3 takeoffs and landings to stay current.....how is that going to happen if you're not allowed to do takeoffs?

What a dumba$$ f-ing idea. I'd sure love to have a minute with the moron that dreamed up this idea.

 

[OleGuy]

All Boeing's have limited rudder steering.

 

[Flying Illini]

I'm not going to say what co. I work for. I will say that this is the first time anything this rediculous has ever been breathed. We have typed FO's and it's fine that we don't switch seats, I could care less, but no t/o's is a new one to me. I never could have dreamed this up, even if I had tried. As for who's idea it was, I don't know that either. The CP delivered the news the other day. I was on a trip and not part of the meeting, again, we'll see on thursday.

As for the currency, 3 t/o's and ldg's every 90 days. I will see what he has to say when this is brought up.