Which airline is going to buy Hawaiian Airlines?

[piepieandbuddy]

With all the international expansion in the last few years between Japan, Korea, Australia and New Zealand, you would think they might be a huge target for merger/acquisition? What do you think?

 

[fletch717]

If I was at Hawaiian I would pray that it was anbody but southwest.

 

[SWA Bubba]

With all the international expansion in the last few years between Japan, Korea, Australia and New Zealand, you would think they might be a huge target for merger/acquisition? What do you think?

You're just trying to piss off Dan Roman, aren't you? :laugh:

Bubba

 

[Dan Roman]

You're just trying to piss off Dan Roman, aren't you? :laugh:

Bubba

:beer:

 

[Dan Roman]

OK, I'll bite. But first, Bubba I think you and I are both above thinking what a few of us think on anything here is really worth getting pissed off about.

As far as Hawaiian goes, sure it's always a concern as anything could happen in this business, but.....
1) Hawaiian has a very successful niche right now that works because they are Hawaiian. Paint another name on the side of the airplanes and merge them into a bigger airline and a lot of what makes them successful would go away. In other words, if someone bought Hawaiian, they would be paying for something that would be disappearing after the merge.
2) Hawaiian has a lot of future plan that will bring a lot of benefit to the State of Hawaii. Probably about 10 more new destinations over the next 3 years. They can expand because they are Hawaiian going to these new destinations, any merger could jeopardize that expansion and of course the state gains a lot by all the jobs Hawaiian is creating in Hawaii. As any merger goes, the acquired carrier gets cherry picked and job growth here in Hawaii would be lost. Big no no with the politicians here.
3) Did you notice that AA's list of every possible merger candidate (AK, Republic, JetBlue etc etc) didn't include Hawaiian? Right now AA is the big player in the merger roulette, we were not even on their radar.

Right now Hawaiian is the fastest growing airline in the industry, this is all to the benefit of Hawaii, that wouldn't be easily destroyed.

 

[dalad]

Delta is supposed to be kicking the tires. Someone knows something because the stock price is slowly climbing. It can't seem to bust through 7 a share.

 

[fly4surf]

Maybe the question should be.....

Who is Hawaiian going to buy?

 

[fly4surf]

New Fare Structure, Expanded Fleet Aimed at Kama'aina Customer
HONOLULU, July 17, 2012 /PRNewswire/ --*****Hawaiian Airlines today implemented a new fare structure for neighbor island travel that lowers ticket prices across all of its fare classes from 4 to 25 percent.
(Logo: http://photos.prnewswire.com/prnh/20040827/LAF044LOGO)
The new rates, which are available for booking today on www.HawaiianAir.com, are designed to stimulate increased kama'aina travel.
Under the new fare structure, the lowest fare for a one-way nonstop interisland flight (including taxes and mandatory federal fees) is $65 for travel from Honolulu to Kahului and Lihu'e.
The new structure's three lowest fares from Honolulu to Kahului, Lihu'e, Hilo and Kona are all lower than the previously published lowest web fare (see chart below).
In addition, the airline's parent company, Hawaiian Holdings, has signed a Letter of Intent to acquire turbo-prop aircraft with the aim of establishing a subsidiary carrier to serve routes not currently in Hawaiian's neighbor island system.
"We are committed to providing safe, frequent and reliable service that allows our residents to travel more easily between all the islands, and we believe the additional capacity and new fares will encourage that," said Peter Ingram, Hawaiian's executive vice president and chief commercial officer.
The new fare structure complements the additional neighbor island capacity and routes Hawaiian introduced earlier this year. Over the past year, Hawaiian has increased capacity by 13 percent and created a Maui hub to increase service between the Valley Isle, Kaua'i and Hawai'i Island. The turbo-prop subsidiary will allow Hawaiian to further expand capacity with daily flights to rural areas.
Hawaiian has offered "Hawaiian Saver" fare sales over the last several months as a way to test customer response to a variety of pricing options, explained Ingram. The Hawaiian Saver fare, which has some restrictions, proved to be attractive to highly cost-conscious travelers. As a result, Hawaiian Saver fares will now anchor the airline's fare structure as a restricted "guaranteed lowest available fare." All other base fares have also been reduced to provide attractive pricing throughout the day on all of Hawaiian's 170 daily neighbor island flights.
"By offering a greater variety of pricing options across our flight schedule every day we hope to make it easier for people to take the extra trip they might not have taken if the lower fares weren't available," said Ingram. "Having said that, it will always be true that the best value is available to those who book early on HawaiianAir.com, and we encourage all of our customers to do that."

 

[Flyby1206]

New Fare Structure, Expanded Fleet Aimed at Kama'aina Customer
HONOLULU, July 17, 2012 /PRNewswire/ --*****Hawaiian Airlines today implemented a new fare structure for neighbor island travel that lowers ticket prices across all of its fare classes from 4 to 25 percent.
(Logo: http://photos.prnewswire.com/prnh/20040827/LAF044LOGO)
The new rates, which are available for booking today on www.HawaiianAir.com, are designed to stimulate increased kama'aina travel.
Under the new fare structure, the lowest fare for a one-way nonstop interisland flight (including taxes and mandatory federal fees) is $65 for travel from Honolulu to Kahului and Lihu'e.
The new structure's three lowest fares from Honolulu to Kahului, Lihu'e, Hilo and Kona are all lower than the previously published lowest web fare (see chart below).
In addition, the airline's parent company, Hawaiian Holdings, has signed a Letter of Intent to acquire turbo-prop aircraft with the aim of establishing a subsidiary carrier to serve routes not currently in Hawaiian's neighbor island system.
"We are committed to providing safe, frequent and reliable service that allows our residents to travel more easily between all the islands, and we believe the additional capacity and new fares will encourage that," said Peter Ingram, Hawaiian's executive vice president and chief commercial officer.
The new fare structure complements the additional neighbor island capacity and routes Hawaiian introduced earlier this year. Over the past year, Hawaiian has increased capacity by 13 percent and created a Maui hub to increase service between the Valley Isle, Kaua'i and Hawai'i Island. The turbo-prop subsidiary will allow Hawaiian to further expand capacity with daily flights to rural areas.
Hawaiian has offered "Hawaiian Saver" fare sales over the last several months as a way to test customer response to a variety of pricing options, explained Ingram. The Hawaiian Saver fare, which has some restrictions, proved to be attractive to highly cost-conscious travelers. As a result, Hawaiian Saver fares will now anchor the airline's fare structure as a restricted "guaranteed lowest available fare." All other base fares have also been reduced to provide attractive pricing throughout the day on all of Hawaiian's 170 daily neighbor island flights.
"By offering a greater variety of pricing options across our flight schedule every day we hope to make it easier for people to take the extra trip they might not have taken if the lower fares weren't available," said Ingram. "Having said that, it will always be true that the best value is available to those who book early on HawaiianAir.com, and we encourage all of our customers to do that."

Hawaiian regional, hmmm! Keep it on the same seniority list guys, learn from the mistakes of others

 

[Andy]

Go! Airlines will be buying Hawaiian. Ornstein's opening up a restaurant in Honolulu and plans on serving wallaby steaks and platypus burgers - he'll fill the cargo bins on the SYD-HNL runs with fresh supplies.

 

[lorien]

Delta gobbles up both Alaska and Hawaiian, renames itself Neo and rules as the one true American airline. That's a lot of wind checks. sigh.

 

[Dan Roman]

Maybe the question should be.....

Who is Hawaiian going to buy?

Island Air?? This could be one salvo in a negotiation process.

 

[Poahi]

Island Air?? This could be one salvo in a negotiation process.

I can't imagine HA keeping the code share with Island Air after today's announcement.

 

[Jim]

Hawaiian regional, hmmm! Keep it on the same seniority list guys, learn from the mistakes of others

Our scope already allows a wholly owned feeder with restrictions.
- Turboprop 69 seats or less, 69k lbs MTOW
- No reduction to 717 inter-island block hours
- At least 29,000 717 block hours in any 12 consecutive months
- No furloughs of any Hawaiian pilots due to feeder inter-island flying
- No flying on the major city pairs the 717s fly (HNL-LIH, HNL-ITO, HNL-KOA, and HNL-OGG)
- If there are furloughed Hawaiian pilots due to other reasons, they get first interview/hire at the feeder.

 

[K-Mart]

If I was at Hawaiian I would pray that it was anbody but southwest.

You sound disapointed. Why?

 

[Jar Jar]

Our scope already allows a wholly owned feeder with restrictions.
- Turboprop 69 seats or less, 69k lbs MTOW
- No reduction to 717 inter-island block hours
- At least 29,000 717 block hours in any 12 consecutive months
- No furloughs of any Hawaiian pilots due to feeder inter-island flying
- No flying on the major city pairs the 717s fly (HNL-LIH, HNL-ITO, HNL-KOA, and HNL-OGG)
- If there are furloughed Hawaiian pilots due to other reasons, they get first interview/hire at the feeder.

Solid scope in comparisson to the 'industry leading' contracts that have been voted in very recently..

 

[Ky.BrownBourbn]

Ok, so Hawaiian gets regional feed, I see their 71's gone!

Ok, so you allow turboprops, which a Q400 is THE perfect A/C for interisland feed...I see the 71's heading to DAL since someone's finally interested in them. If the pilots are on a different seniority list, then what? I know, I know, "the contract doesn't allow for that" but why would your contract ever let them do it? I'm sure we'll hear from DR, but anyone else there got SN opinion on that? And you would almost have to have the pay be on HAL's payscale in order to afford to live there, otherwise you'll never get (or keep) experienced guys to stay because of the cost of living. Does the HAL contract allow the new operation to codeshare with other ops.? I'm sure everyone going out there is interested in a "new" commuter. Where could these possibly be going that the 717 can't handle? (do they (the government) offer EAS service between any remote spots?
Discuss!
KBB

 

[dash8driver]

Ok, so you allow turboprops, which a Q400 is THE perfect A/C for interisland feed...I see the 71's heading to DAL since someone's finally interested in them. If the pilots are on a different seniority list, then what? I know, I know, "the contract doesn't allow for that" but why would your contract ever let them do it? I'm sure we'll hear from DR, but anyone else there got SN opinion on that? And you would almost have to have the pay be on HAL's payscale in order to afford to live there, otherwise you'll never get (or keep) experienced guys to stay because of the cost of living. Does the HAL contract allow the new operation to codeshare with other ops.? I'm sure everyone going out there is interested in a "new" commuter. Where could these possibly be going that the 717 can't handle? (do they (the government) offer EAS service between any remote spots?
Discuss!
KBB

PHJM. They'll also fly them to PHMK and PHNY, two other airports that the 717 does not fly into.

 

[Dan Roman]

Ok, so you allow turboprops, which a Q400 is THE perfect A/C for interisland feed...I see the 71's heading to DAL since someone's finally interested in them. If the pilots are on a different seniority list, then what? I know, I know, "the contract doesn't allow for that" but why would your contract ever let them do it? I'm sure we'll hear from DR, but anyone else there got SN opinion on that? And you would almost have to have the pay be on HAL's payscale in order to afford to live there, otherwise you'll never get (or keep) experienced guys to stay because of the cost of living. Does the HAL contract allow the new operation to codeshare with other ops.? I'm sure everyone going out there is interested in a "new" commuter. Where could these possibly be going that the 717 can't handle? (do they (the government) offer EAS service between any remote spots?
Discuss!
KBB

The Tprop routes that aren't viable for the 717's are LNY, Mkk and JHM. No EAS there. Where the 717's fly now are among the heaviest traveled routes in the country. I think 2 0f the top ten city pairs (HNL-OGG and HNL-LIH) in the U.S are inter-island. HNL to KOA is something like 13th. For that reason, the Q400's don't work, no were near enough seats. As Jim posted and Jar Jar said, we have a good common sense scope that allows for turboprop feed on the routes were turboprops make sense. Hawaiian use to fly Dash 7's on those routes. Back then the Dash 7 pilots were, in fact, on the same seniority list. With the amount of growth we have projected, it would not be possible to hire for a 4th position that would support TProp wages. It has to be done separately to have a chance of being economically viable. Otherwise, newhire Tprop pilots would find themselves senior to A330 F/O's right after they get hired. The nightmare of freezing pilots in their seats and bypass pay would be insurmountable. It just wouldn't work.
Plenty of pilots live over here that don't make "Hawaiian's wages". The cost of living is higher, although SFO tops HNL on the list of most expensive cities. It could be a good job that would allow for either some pilots that are happy to come over and fly inter-island turboprops by choice or create a viable stepping stone to Hawaiian.

 

[Ky.BrownBourbn]

we have a good common sense scope that allows for turboprop feed on the routes were turboprops make sense. .

Thanks for a reasonable response...I do hope that the scope language is written better than above, which I'm sure it is...because what is "reasonable" to us may not be "reasonable" to management! I welcome any new jobs!
Later,
KBB

 

[igneousy2]

Our scope already allows a wholly owned feeder with restrictions.
- Turboprop 69 seats or less, 69k lbs MTOW
- No reduction to 717 inter-island block hours
- At least 29,000 717 block hours in any 12 consecutive months
- No furloughs of any Hawaiian pilots due to feeder inter-island flying
- No flying on the major city pairs the 717s fly (HNL-LIH, HNL-ITO, HNL-KOA, and HNL-OGG)
- If there are furloughed Hawaiian pilots due to other reasons, they get first interview/hire at the feeder.

It's a good scope clause with a few holes. If there is anyway you can do it...keep the flying in house.

No reduction in 717 block hours? from when? if it's your DOS (which I am guessing it is) I am positive that Hawaiian has added a huge amount of 717 flying since then.

How many block hours is 29,000 hours in comparison to today? I'm guessing a lot less.

No furlough due to feeder flying? This is happening in good times so when things go south it won't be because of the feed...it'll be because of the macro-economic environment, or because Airbus is late on the 350, or you don't get New Zealand government approval for Auckland, or the next terrorist attack, or the next bird-flu.

No flying on the major city pairs...that's great...what would happen if the company decided to turn the "Maui hub" over to the regional tomorrow? How many less pilots would that mean?

First interview/hire at the feeder? I suppose if this makes you feel better. When I was furloughed I didn't apply to any regional because the pay was better on unemployment...just saying.

The thing with Scope clauses is that your flying gets sucked away from you at a very slow rate...so slow that you won't notice it until you look up one day and half your inter-island feed is going to be over at the regional and there is a 300 pilot Dash-8 operation in LAS feeding your 767's. These operations are setup when times are good, and your scope will be eroded when times are bad. Management - we need a 5% pay cut across the board...or you can let the regional fly HNL-OGG during the off peak times of 1000-1400. Next year...we need some pay give backs again...but...if you extend the off peak times just one hour...and let us fly RJ's (but not more than 67 seats) we'll be good.

Additionally, because scope erosion always happens in bad times, it is difficult to enforce. In other words, say the economy falls off a cliff again, the company NEEDS to drop 717 inter-island flying to 25,000 block hours which is against your scope by 4,000 hours. Your negotiating committee has confirmed this by looking at the companies books...this is real. Do you A. Allow the company to drop the 717 hours to 25,000 hours with no further effect on you aside from the 12.5 pilots that would be furloughed; or do you B. enforce your scope clause which in theory would force the company to shut down this regional causing X millions in losses in revenues because if the routes couldn't be supported by a 717 in good times, it surely can't be supported now. Millions in write downs by having to sell planes at fire-sale prices, further placing the company in financial jeopardy? Historically, pilot groups have chosen A, as you will to.

That's the slow way, the fast way is for some future management has the opportunity to invoke force majeure in regards to scope due to some outside event, or heaven forbid a Hawaiian bankruptcy. It's not easy to start a new airline, so if the cheaper option doesn't already exist, they will have to work with you.

Pilot groups have a hard time seeing more than 5-10 years out. I know Dunkerly is very popular...and that's great. I'm guessing he earned the respect because you can believe what he says and he's not going to be cut throat, but try to look 20-30 years out, what if you get a Bob Crandall type at the head after Dunkerly leaves.


I think the lesson learned in airline history over the years about scope clauses is that they don't really work. With Hawaiian, the horse is still in the barn. Don't let it out! Work out the other minor issues...give the company relief from by-pass pay if you need to...but keep the horse in the barn. If Hawaiian wants to offer service in a Cessna 152 from JRF-HNL, if there is a Pualani on the tail...then there is a Hawaiian Pilot at the controls. All of the arguments you are making have all been made before.

Do you think American pilots think it was a good idea to allow American Eagle to be created? After all...they just fly props in tertiary markets that don't make economic sense with the Fokkers.

 

[Jim]

^
I don't think that many pilot "like" Dunkerley. We respect that he is moving the airline in the right direction and that he's made us a really healthy airline, but I don;t think many of him trust him as far as our contract goes.

We have different scope for any mainland and overseas code shares or feeder operations. I think both are pretty solid and have stringent criteria when the flying must be turned over from the code share/feeder to Hawaiian pilots.

The no reduction in flying is as of the feeder starting operations. This and the 29k block hours is a "great of" scenario.

The y came out today and said they are planning on 3 to 6 turboprops of 50 seats or less to start sometime in 2013. Flying will be to Lanai and Molokai where the 717s can't go. They expect to announce more details in a month or so.

 

[Snapshot]

3) Did you notice that AA's list of every possible merger candidate (AK, Republic, JetBlue etc etc) didn't include Hawaiian? Right now AA is the big player in the merger roulette, we were not even on their radar. .

That fact is cause for worry. Since when do airlines, or any business for that matter, broadcast in the press what is actually happening.

 

[mdanno808]

I think it will probably be Delta.

The for sale sign has been in the window for a long time, and this whole turbo prop thing seals the fact that Hawaiian basically owns Hawaii, and it's passengers. If you go to any airport, on any island, there will be Hawaiian aircraft there. You buy Hawaiian, you buy the Hawaii market.

I agree that Delta would probably ******************** the whole thing up, and manage to alienate the local commuters, but it will still probably happen. Plus, can you imagine all the fricken wind checks going into OGG?!

 

[Ky.BrownBourbn]

I think it will probably be Delta.

The for sale sign has been in the window for a long time, and this whole turbo prop thing seals the fact that Hawaiian basically owns Hawaii, and it's passengers. If you go to any airport, on any island, there will be Hawaiian aircraft there. You buy Hawaiian, you buy the Hawaii market.

I agree that Delta would probably ******************** the whole thing up, and manage to alienate the local commuters, but it will still probably happen. Plus, can you imagine all the fricken wind checks going into OGG?!

What's a "Wind Check"?
KBB

 

[texman]

looks like one of the former VP's of SWA is doing well at Hawaiian.