At the FBO I work for an aircraft came in the other day with the passenger but somehow they forgot the passengers luggage at their point of origin. The aircraft had to fly back to their original point of departure to retrieve the bags. Has anything like this ever happened to anybody on here? Will these pilots be out of a job? I'm just a lowly CFI at the above FBO so I'm not going to name names or give out any info on the company or who they were flying......Just curious as to whether this type of screw-up is unheard of or not.
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Where's the bags?
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Duderino
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I think by making it your business about this pilots mistakes, you are involving yourself too much. Keep teaching people how to fly and stop worrying about someone elses job. These pilots pay bills with the money they make from that job and don't need some CFI discussing there f ups about it, and possibly making it worse. I agree it seems odd, but you have no way of knowing what happened.
Dude
Dude
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nosehair
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Who-o-a-h-h!!, Duderino, Dude! This is one good example of pilot's not (repeat: NOT) being trained how to fly. How to fly commercially, that is. You teach someone "how to fly" the airplane in getting the Private, but whaddya think all that time towards the commercial is supposed to do?...Learn how to fly commercially, that's what. But do they do it? No - not in the real world way.Duderino said:
I demand timely departures and arrivals, accurate fuel planning and leaning. Flying with minimum fuel, maximum payload, pilotage and dead reckoning to grass strips, diversions, the kind of flying the typical charter pilot first comes into. Admittedly, I have not used the training tool of actually loading on the bags, which would be good training.
However, from what I have seen at most flight schools, (61 & 141) not much, if any, attention is paid to this kind of "customer oriented" kind of flying. Most Flight School operators want the student to always take-off with full tanks, not lean, and allow no planning at all on making a departure or arrival time. After all, if it isn't in the PTS, why bother?
FN FAL
Freight Dawgs Rule
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Yea, bags could be looked at in several different lights. One would be knowing any FAR requirements or aircraft limitations regarding baggage, baggage security, baggage compartments. Policy or proceedure on locking baggage compartments and knowing what can and can't be carried on a 135 passengers luggage in regards to hazardous materials.nosehair said:
The other would be the customer service aspect of customer baggage, as you pointed out already. The charter sales department should have a good handle on advising charter customers and quizzing charter custormers about baggage. I had one lady show up for an Aztec trip with one of those easle boards and something that was part of her presentation that couldn't be folded to fit on the plane. She was adamant that she could take the thing and that charter sales told her she could. I just informed her that she could fold it and get going or go back inside and upsize to a cabin class twin. What the hell are you going to do at that point.
As for the original poster, I appreciate reading the story and I also agree with the sentiment that knowing the who, when, where, what is not necessary. But the discussion is welcome. You never know, maybe the owner is d!ck.
Why would there be an assumption the pilots did anything wrong?
Maybe they dropped the ball somehow but I think its far more likely that there was a lack of communcation on the owners part as to the luggage situation.
Reading the original post and saying that those pilots aren't properly trained is very very silly.
Nosehair: I appreciate the idea of teaching to real world flying. Training environments are different than the real thing. Planning a flight with partial fuel is fine, but what if the airplane on the ramp has too much fuel in it to begin with. Then you have to choose between going overweight (illegal, but you know maybe its not "that much over"), defueling (may be easy or impossible depending on the situation), or telling the pax that they have to leave someone or something behind (not as easy as it sounds). That's real life baby!
Maybe they dropped the ball somehow but I think its far more likely that there was a lack of communcation on the owners part as to the luggage situation.
Reading the original post and saying that those pilots aren't properly trained is very very silly.
Nosehair: I appreciate the idea of teaching to real world flying. Training environments are different than the real thing. Planning a flight with partial fuel is fine, but what if the airplane on the ramp has too much fuel in it to begin with. Then you have to choose between going overweight (illegal, but you know maybe its not "that much over"), defueling (may be easy or impossible depending on the situation), or telling the pax that they have to leave someone or something behind (not as easy as it sounds). That's real life baby!
Oh yeah... and don't forget the timely departure!
Actually I think stressing timely departures and arrivals is a bad idea. You need to leave when you are ready to leave and you arrive when you get there.
The trick to departing on time is to start getting ready early enough. That's the only factor we really have control over. Even then obsticals can crop up and if dealing with it makes you late then so be it.
Pushing, rushing, and stressing to do something on time is a newbie commercial pilot mistake that can lead to more mistakes.
Actually I think stressing timely departures and arrivals is a bad idea. You need to leave when you are ready to leave and you arrive when you get there.
The trick to departing on time is to start getting ready early enough. That's the only factor we really have control over. Even then obsticals can crop up and if dealing with it makes you late then so be it.
Pushing, rushing, and stressing to do something on time is a newbie commercial pilot mistake that can lead to more mistakes.
I was just thinking the exact same thing. Why would there be an assumption the pilots did anything wrong?
Maybe they dropped the ball somehow but I think its far more likely that there was a lack of communcation on the owners part as to the luggage situation.
Reading the original post and saying that those pilots aren't properly trained is very very silly.
I agree with you 100%.
Luap Sel.
Maybe they dropped the ball somehow but I think its far more likely that there was a lack of communcation on the owners part as to the luggage situation.
Reading the original post and saying that those pilots aren't properly trained is very very silly.
I agree with you 100%.
Luap Sel.
Dr Pokenhiemer
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I'll answer on behalf of Avbug
First, the PIC is entirely responsible for the aircraft operation. This would include a proper weight and balance. If the pilot received the bags from the originator and assumed they were properly loaded on the aircraft, the weight and balance would reflect such said weight. Now let's look at the fact that the bags were left at the previous FBO. Since the PIC flew the aircraft with less weight than was figured on the weight and balance form, all figured in the flight were wrong. For example, while calculating Vref for landing at the destination, he/she would have selected a speed in excess of the proper Vref speed as depicted in the landing charts.
Now let's look at another factor. Let's say the weather was low IFR. Assume the aircraft is on the final approach segment of a non-precision approach. Of course we know that this is a timed segment if not using DME. Since the PIC left the baggage behind, is flying a higher than needed Vref, the speed is higher than normal. This could've made the "final decsent to landing" abnormal by making abrupt control inputs at the last second to make the landing.
The originating FBO now had to fuel the aircraft in question twice. This may have put a fellow pilot in a bind due to the lack of fuel left in the storage facility. Looking at the average cost of fuel and the hourly maint. cost, the additional expenses incurred would more than likely put atleast one pilot out of a job.
This opens yet another window. We need to know what type of aircraft this event occurred in so that we'll know what type rating would be most advantagous in obtaining to fill this slot.
Sorry Avbug--Thought I'd beat you to writing a book this time!
First, the PIC is entirely responsible for the aircraft operation. This would include a proper weight and balance. If the pilot received the bags from the originator and assumed they were properly loaded on the aircraft, the weight and balance would reflect such said weight. Now let's look at the fact that the bags were left at the previous FBO. Since the PIC flew the aircraft with less weight than was figured on the weight and balance form, all figured in the flight were wrong. For example, while calculating Vref for landing at the destination, he/she would have selected a speed in excess of the proper Vref speed as depicted in the landing charts.
Now let's look at another factor. Let's say the weather was low IFR. Assume the aircraft is on the final approach segment of a non-precision approach. Of course we know that this is a timed segment if not using DME. Since the PIC left the baggage behind, is flying a higher than needed Vref, the speed is higher than normal. This could've made the "final decsent to landing" abnormal by making abrupt control inputs at the last second to make the landing.
The originating FBO now had to fuel the aircraft in question twice. This may have put a fellow pilot in a bind due to the lack of fuel left in the storage facility. Looking at the average cost of fuel and the hourly maint. cost, the additional expenses incurred would more than likely put atleast one pilot out of a job.
This opens yet another window. We need to know what type of aircraft this event occurred in so that we'll know what type rating would be most advantagous in obtaining to fill this slot.
Sorry Avbug--Thought I'd beat you to writing a book this time!
English
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Corona
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OK: Here's my funny "lost baggage" story:
I worked for a short time for a small regional airline operating from an uncontrolled airport in BFE.
One day, there were actually two airplanes on the ramp, each going to a different destination. Naturally, the rampers were putting bags on both airplanes.
As the first airplane taxiied to the runway, it was discovered that three of its bags were accidentally put on airplane #2. The bags were unloaded, put on a baggage cart, then driven out to airplane #1, which had engines running at the hold line. The bags were thrown on airplane #1 and it departed.
Upon reaching destination, a pax from airplane #1 discovered a bag was missing. A great search took place to find the bag. After all, with only two planes on the ramp, how far could it have gotten? There was no joy; the bag was gone.
The next day, a crew taxiing out noticed a suitcase lying in the gravel next to the taxiway.
Yes, the genius ramper had thrown THREE bags on the baggage cart, yet as he skidded out to the waiting airplane #1, one bag vacated the vehicle. He then studiously threw TWO bags on the waiting airplane. Then, apparently with head firmly implanted elsewhere, he drove back, right past the bag that'd bailed from his cart.
After that, we crews always made sure we never had more than one plane on the ramp at any given time.
C
I worked for a short time for a small regional airline operating from an uncontrolled airport in BFE.
One day, there were actually two airplanes on the ramp, each going to a different destination. Naturally, the rampers were putting bags on both airplanes.
As the first airplane taxiied to the runway, it was discovered that three of its bags were accidentally put on airplane #2. The bags were unloaded, put on a baggage cart, then driven out to airplane #1, which had engines running at the hold line. The bags were thrown on airplane #1 and it departed.
Upon reaching destination, a pax from airplane #1 discovered a bag was missing. A great search took place to find the bag. After all, with only two planes on the ramp, how far could it have gotten? There was no joy; the bag was gone.
The next day, a crew taxiing out noticed a suitcase lying in the gravel next to the taxiway.
Yes, the genius ramper had thrown THREE bags on the baggage cart, yet as he skidded out to the waiting airplane #1, one bag vacated the vehicle. He then studiously threw TWO bags on the waiting airplane. Then, apparently with head firmly implanted elsewhere, he drove back, right past the bag that'd bailed from his cart.
After that, we crews always made sure we never had more than one plane on the ramp at any given time.
C
Flying Illini
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It wasn't baggage left behind...it was far worse. I wasn't on this particular airplane but it happened to our crew and the FO is a good friend of mine.
Going to Atlanta last year for the Sweet 16 game, Illinois V. Duke. I was already down in ATL, had landed several hours earlier. Our other plane was going to MDW then to ATL. At MDW, as the pax walked into Atlantic they handed my friend two bags. One a plastic bag with obvious trash in it, the other a small brown paper bag (think lunch-sack) that was in pretty bad shape (I saw the bag later...longer story). He took them both to the trash and promptly threw them out.
Well, they arrive in ATL and from inside, I watch this drama unfold. Apparently in that beat-up brown paper bag there were 8 tickets to the game. And now these folks had some liquour and beer in them and were getting vocal about this. My buddy was seriously beside himself. He couldn't believe what he'd done and he felt awful...and had 8 guys yelling at him. The situation was getting ugly. He took a long shot and called Atlantic at MDW, they went through the trash and found the bag with the tickets. It was too late to fly back to get them, the game was starting in an hour. So one of the pax called a friend high up at the arena and it turned out that their only option was to try to get in with copies of the tickets that were faxed down.
It worked but my buddy thought he was going to be fired for sure. Nothing came of it but the pax weren't happy. I guess the lesson is to double check to make sure it's all trash and the pax shouldn't hand you two bags that look like trash and say "take care of these for me."
On another note:
I am also guilty of taking too many bags from a pax car. Oh well.
I've also denied luggage (odd shaped items like bumpers, etc) due to space limitations and the fact that they wanted to put it in the isle of a full airplane. Safety reasons.
Going to Atlanta last year for the Sweet 16 game, Illinois V. Duke. I was already down in ATL, had landed several hours earlier. Our other plane was going to MDW then to ATL. At MDW, as the pax walked into Atlantic they handed my friend two bags. One a plastic bag with obvious trash in it, the other a small brown paper bag (think lunch-sack) that was in pretty bad shape (I saw the bag later...longer story). He took them both to the trash and promptly threw them out.
Well, they arrive in ATL and from inside, I watch this drama unfold. Apparently in that beat-up brown paper bag there were 8 tickets to the game. And now these folks had some liquour and beer in them and were getting vocal about this. My buddy was seriously beside himself. He couldn't believe what he'd done and he felt awful...and had 8 guys yelling at him. The situation was getting ugly. He took a long shot and called Atlantic at MDW, they went through the trash and found the bag with the tickets. It was too late to fly back to get them, the game was starting in an hour. So one of the pax called a friend high up at the arena and it turned out that their only option was to try to get in with copies of the tickets that were faxed down.
It worked but my buddy thought he was going to be fired for sure. Nothing came of it but the pax weren't happy. I guess the lesson is to double check to make sure it's all trash and the pax shouldn't hand you two bags that look like trash and say "take care of these for me."
On another note:
I am also guilty of taking too many bags from a pax car. Oh well.
I've also denied luggage (odd shaped items like bumpers, etc) due to space limitations and the fact that they wanted to put it in the isle of a full airplane. Safety reasons.
Brett Hull
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NotFurloughed
Wookin pa Nub
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Uh??, that's all the baggage???
Happened to me this past weekend...
Passenegr shows up wih the driver at 12:01am...driver opens back of SUV...and...voila! NO BAGS...oops!
So what do you do?
I told the owner, since he had guests with him for the ride to the airport, that since the destination was only 30 minutes, I could bring him and come back for the bags since it would be at least an hour before they could get the bags to the airport...and why noy bring the guests for a round trip flight since we are coming back anyway...
All in all, everything worked out...but to an ill-advised on-looker could this not be mistaken for pilot incompetance???
I'll give another example FROM THE SAME TRIP...
Driver (limo company) shows up with pax ..AND BAGS..pax get on airplane, driver sits in car out of the rain while the FO and myself load the bags on the plane...i ask if that is ALL the bags and inspect the limo myself to find one more small item...off we go...
Turns out someone forgot to put a briefcase on the limo when pax left the hotel...
long story short...
after speaking with the driver and hotel manager and describing the luggage...BOTH insisted that they personally loaded and off-loaded the item...the driver insisted he PERSONALLY put it on the airplane...SAY WHAT???
So now I have the agency, secretaries and the owner calling me and asking if I left the bag on the ramp, on the plane, did I take it home...huh?
After 8 hours of searching (and some flying)...the bag turns up at the hotel...
It's a good thing the manager and driver loaded it themselves...we wouldn't want to have it get lost or misplaced....
While this sort of thing is relatively uncommon...lightning struck twice for me in this case...and with a busy pax that has a different number of bags (usually on every leg) and different drivers and hotels handling the bags every day, its a wonder that the bags get anywhere at all....especially with brainiacs like the hotel manager and driver I dealt with...
I guess the point is, know the whole story before making assumptions...pilots are just a ring in a long chain of people dealing with the passengers personal effects....and we are usually the LAST to misplace the bags since we would have the MOST explaining to do...
Happened to me this past weekend...
Passenegr shows up wih the driver at 12:01am...driver opens back of SUV...and...voila! NO BAGS...oops!
So what do you do?
I told the owner, since he had guests with him for the ride to the airport, that since the destination was only 30 minutes, I could bring him and come back for the bags since it would be at least an hour before they could get the bags to the airport...and why noy bring the guests for a round trip flight since we are coming back anyway...
All in all, everything worked out...but to an ill-advised on-looker could this not be mistaken for pilot incompetance???
I'll give another example FROM THE SAME TRIP...
Driver (limo company) shows up with pax ..AND BAGS..pax get on airplane, driver sits in car out of the rain while the FO and myself load the bags on the plane...i ask if that is ALL the bags and inspect the limo myself to find one more small item...off we go...
Turns out someone forgot to put a briefcase on the limo when pax left the hotel...
long story short...
after speaking with the driver and hotel manager and describing the luggage...BOTH insisted that they personally loaded and off-loaded the item...the driver insisted he PERSONALLY put it on the airplane...SAY WHAT???
So now I have the agency, secretaries and the owner calling me and asking if I left the bag on the ramp, on the plane, did I take it home...huh?
After 8 hours of searching (and some flying)...the bag turns up at the hotel...
It's a good thing the manager and driver loaded it themselves...we wouldn't want to have it get lost or misplaced....
While this sort of thing is relatively uncommon...lightning struck twice for me in this case...and with a busy pax that has a different number of bags (usually on every leg) and different drivers and hotels handling the bags every day, its a wonder that the bags get anywhere at all....especially with brainiacs like the hotel manager and driver I dealt with...
I guess the point is, know the whole story before making assumptions...pilots are just a ring in a long chain of people dealing with the passengers personal effects....and we are usually the LAST to misplace the bags since we would have the MOST explaining to do...
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nosehair
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The reason it's stressing on the newbie is,...HE HASN'T EVER BEEN TRAINED in a stressful environment. Yes, don't stress the student working on his private; he needs to leave when he's ready to leave.Sctt@NJA said:
The part 61 commercial requirement is 50 hours of PIC x/c. About 10 to 15 "trips". If these practice commercial trips were actually trained as commercial trips, instead of "more of the same" on a private level: ie, "just get the time"...,
Well, then the aspiring commercial pilot would learn in the training process that he will have to show up three hours ahead of the scheduled flight to MAKE SURE about the things he can control, and learn that there is a lot of "hurry up and wait" in the planning process,....and how to think about those last minute rushes with bags and such.
Mr. Irrelevant
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Three hours is a bit much. Preparing an airplane and flight plan doesn't take that long. I get the impression you haven't done much in the way of charter. For commercial training it helps to get people to think of the responsibility involved in being in complete control of the flight including making sure cars are waiting, food is provided, etc. However, you'll spend alot of wasted time before a flight just hanging around if you get to the airport three hours early. This isn't rocket science.
Kingairrick
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Nose, I think you should get some real-world experience before you implement that idea. If he shows up 3 hours before departure, he will have lots of explaining to do about why he can't fly home because he is out of duty time at the end of a long day. Remember, he only has 14 hours from when he shows for a flight.
C'mon Pokenman, vref changes in my airplane 3 knots for every 1000 lbs. I'm lucky to hold airspeed that accurately on a good day...(I know it was tounge-in-cheek,)
smellthejeta
The plane I solo'd in
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YES! I saw that once. I've seen crews leave gear pins in, service doors (baggage compartments too) open, pitot covers on, torque links undone (guy got fired for that one)... but the guy that takes the cake was the one who left his pax behind.Vik said:
The story isn't all that fun to tell or all that great to hear, but the punch line is funny as sh!t. Back when I was on the other coast, we had a C750 come in for a quick turn. Meanwhile, pax is waiting in the lobby (sir, security requires that your flight crew escort you out to the airplane. I'm sorry, but you must wait inside). Fair enough. Plane comes in. Drops pax. Taxis out. Pax stammering: "Thats thats thats my plane!" We had to call the tower to let the guy know he forgot his pax (that's the punch line). Man, when the plane taxied back, I just *had* to stand at the base of the stairs to hear that explanation. I was let down. All that was given was a big smile and "Welcome aboard!"
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