Where the Real Blame Lies...

[SEVEN]

For all of you screaming for Regulation change; I have no problem with the FAA tweeking some of the rest, reduced rest, and duty time requirements. That's all fine and dandy. But guess what? Inexperienced pilots will still crash and kill lots of people even with 11 hours of rest. Fatigue is definately real. I and many others have experienced it many times. It can be a factor in crashes. But, pilots have a responsibility, even when tired to complete a flight safely. If a pilot feels that tired/fatigued a sick call is in order. I know that Colgan frowns upon calling in sick. But come on. It's not worth the risk of crashing. This will hopefully be a learning experience for the industry.
Inexperience and crew pairing was huge in this crash. This needs to change and change FAST!

 

[ackattacker]

Which, interestingly enough, is the exact procedure one would use in the event of a tailplane stall.

Agreed. And apparently Colgan was teaching tail-plane stall recovery in ground school. So they have been spring loaded to expect it, especially with icing and just after flap selection.

Of course a tail plane stall does NOT set off the stall warning system. They should have known that. Shoulda coulda woulda.

Clearly that had a lack of situational awareness... no idea the airspeed was so low. So when you say "flaps 15" and all hell breaks loose it's natural to undo what you just did. Not an excuse just an explanation. A lack of airmanship for sure, starting with distraction and not keeping track of the big 3 - attitude, airspeed, position.

I wonder how much time they had with airspeed tape vs. round dial.

 

[Browntothebone]

FAA needs to regulate a mandatory minimum wage, say $40,000 for starting F/O and $100,000 for Captain upgrade. That will bring in the quality applicants.

 

[777forever]

Good point. And consider this:

Regional airlines account for approximately 50 percent of all scheduled airline flights in America.

The NTSB website lists two regional airline accidents over the last 10 years which were flown under 121 and had fatailties associated with pilot error -
COMAIR 5191
Colgan 3407 (let's assume this was for simplicity)

The combined loss of life is approximately 100.

That same database lists three 'major airline' accidents under the same conditions -
American 1420 - Little Rock
American 587 - Bell Harbor NY
Soutwest 1248 - Chicago

The combined loss of life is 277

Sully probably didn't include that in his testimony.

Right on the money bro! Everyone is quick to jump on the lack of experience bandwagon when history has shown these type of crashes occur at all experience levels.

The Turkish Airlines 737 stalled and crashed on final with not 2 but 3 highly experienced crew members on board. And I know the Capt for sure had military training.

A highly experienced CAL 737 Capt got lucky he didn't kill 100+ people when he made the decision to correct for the FO being off centerline with the tiller during the T/O roll. Lawsuits on the way though!

Highly experienced A340 crew made a simple FMS entry error and got lucky they didn't kill 200+ people on T/O in Australia. All they got was a pretty bad tailstrike and a pink slip.

Highly experienced NWA A320 crew just recently tailstriked on landing in Denver so bad the plane is written off. Somehow I think it's gunna end up being pilot error.

I believe the system we have is almost as good as it gets. At the end of the day we have to realize that we are all human and it is virtually impossible to prevent accidents from ever happening. The best we can do is reduce the probability, which I believe the system is doing a excellent job.

 

[BoilerUP]

Inexperienced pilots will still crash and kill lots of people even with 11 hours of rest. Fatigue is definately real. I and many others have experienced it many times. It can be a factor in crashes. But, pilots have a responsibility, even when tired to complete a flight safely. If a pilot feels that tired/fatigued a sick call is in order. I know that Colgan frowns upon calling in sick. But come on. It's not worth the risk of crashing. This will hopefully be a learning experience for the industry.
Inexperience and crew pairing was huge in this crash. This needs to change and change FAST!

While I know what you're saying, history has shown us even highly experienced airline pilots have killed lots of people too...doing things like running out of gas, flying perfectly good airplanes into the ground, not using flaps for takeoff, etc.

Fatigue, experience, working atmosphere - all are contributing factors to fatal accidents...but ultimately the two people sitting in the pointy end are responsible for safety of flight, and complacency (in pilots with 1000 hours or 20,000 hours) kills.

Fate is the hunter...

 

[ackattacker]

Right on the money bro! Everyone is quick to jump on the lack of experience bandwagon when history has shown these type of crashes occur at all experience levels.

The Turkish Airlines 737 stalled and crashed on final with not 2 but 3 highly experienced crew members on board. And I know the Capt for sure had military training.

A highly experienced CAL 737 Capt got lucky he didn't kill 100+ people when he made the decision to correct for the FO being off centerline with the tiller during the T/O roll. Lawsuits on the way though!

Highly experienced A340 crew made a simple FMS entry error and got lucky they didn't kill 200+ people on T/O in Australia. All they got was a pretty bad tailstrike and a pink slip.

Highly experienced NWA A320 crew just recently tailstriked on landing in Denver so bad the plane is written off. Somehow I think it's gunna end up being pilot error.

I believe the system we have is almost as good as it gets. At the end of the day we have to realize that we are all human and it is virtually impossible to prevent accidents from ever happening. The best we can do is reduce the probability, which I believe the system is doing a excellent job.

All valid points however I don't believe in saying "well, that's as good as it gets (or good enough), no sense trying to improve the system".

Clearly airline safety can be improved further. And, analyzing the root causes of accidents and correcting for them is a fundamental part of that.

 

[777forever]

All valid points however I don't believe in saying "well, that's as good as it gets (or good enough), no sense trying to improve the system".

Clearly airline safety can be improved further. And, analyzing the root causes of accidents and correcting for them is a fundamental part of that.

Completely agree. I believe we have a very strong foundation for what a safe system should be. It can and will use a little improvements here and there. Like mandatory stickpusher training.

 

[Papa Woody]

American 587 was a bomb.

 

[Flyer1015]

FAA needs to regulate a mandatory minimum wage, say $40,000 for starting F/O and $100,000 for Captain upgrade. That will bring in the quality applicants.

How stupid are you? Since when will the FAA ever cave in to what the NTSB says, when it involves money $$$????????? Sorry, but the ATA and RAA will ensure, through powerful $ lobbying, that the FAA maintain status quo on how things are right now. Expect changes in stall profiles (to probably include all the way to pusher). But do NOT expect changes in long duty days, reduced rest, and fatiguing schedules.

 

[Flyer1015]

American 587 was a bomb.

No, that was pretty much all Molin and rudder smashing to full deflection, left and right, 5 or 6 times before finally snapping.