When to file NASA form

[cale42]

Ok.. looking for opinions on when to file a NASA reporting form and when not too.

Doing CAX night solo last night, I departed and climbed out to 1700 feet under a bravo shelf that is 2500 at the airport but decreases to 1900 about 3 miles out. About 3 miles after takeoff, while talking to tower to make sure they hadn't changed my IFR clearance I accidentally got up to about 2000 feet. I got it quickly and immediately descended back down.. however at the time I'm not sure if I was still under the 2500 foot shelf or had gotten to the 1900 foot shelf.

The long and short of it is I'm not sure if I violated the bravo.. I was talking to a delta tower at the time and monitoring the bravo approach frequency and nobody said anything to me.. I picked up an IFR clearance 15 minutes later and nobody said anything.

Should I file a NASA report, or is there no way this will come back to bite me at this point??

 

[skyking1976]

I would say this would be up to your personal discretion. Seeing that you recognized your error and expeditiously corrected it, I would say that you are "safe" from any violations. Also, you were in contact with the tower controller and he may have contacted approach himself to advise them of your presence. However, if you have never filed a NASA form before it may be good practice to do so.

Just my $.02

SK

 

[midlifeflyer]

Can you think of a reason =not= to file it?

 

[cale42]

Well the only reason I can think of not to file one is that I don't entirely understand how the system works. I know there is a limited number of times you can file one. And I have to assume if you file too many it raises a red flag. So at this early point in my career I don't want to use one up if it is on something that I wouldn't be violated for anyway.

 

[ShawnC]

Can you think of a reason =not= to file it?

Not me. I mail them out always before I go flying.

cale42,

They can't use anything from a NASA form to violate you (as long as it wasn't a criminal action or one that resulted in an accident).

Also if the FAA comes knocking on your door, as long as you didn't do that act purposefully, haven't had a violation within the last 5 years, and mailed the form out within 10 days they can't violate you for that action.

The details are here:
http://asrs.arc.nasa.gov/immunity_nf.htm

See 9.c

Oh all identifiable information is removed by NASA, and they only ask for your information if they need more information, and to return it so you have proof that you filed it.

 

[cale42]

What happens though if the FAA comes knocking some day and they find you have been filing 6 NASA forms a year for the past 10 years.. won't that raise some suspicion.. or do they have no way of knowing what past forms you have filed.

 

[ShawnC]

or do they have no way of knowing what past forms you have filed.

They have no way of knowing. All the personal information is collected on the top of the form that is mailed back to you once NASA feels the form is complete. They cut the top off and mail it back to you as proof that you filed a report, only you know you filed a report. Neither the FAA nor NASA know that you filed a report, so you have to keep it as proof in case they investigate you.

If there is information that could possible identify you (like aircraft N numbers) in the narrative, they black them out (think classified documents) and not entered in the one that goes into the database.

 

[A Squared]

A couple of things:

As has been mentioned, there is no limit on the number of times you can file an ASRS report, but if you have 2 enforcements in less than 5 years, you can't use the immunity for the second one.

The ASRS report does not keep you from getting a *violation* it waives the penalty for that violation. You still get the violation. If the FAA decides to proceed with an enforcement against you, you get the whole works, letter of investigation, hearing, judgement, except whatever penalty is normally assesed (usually a suspension) is waived.

Lastly, be *very* careful what you write on hte return strip. Make absolotely sure that ther is nothing incriminating in any way, nor any admission of guilt in any way shape of form on the return strip. In order to avoid a penalty, you have to show the strip to prove that you files an ASRS report, and the strip is not considered a part of the report, and is not subject to the same restrictions of info in the reoprt. The FAA can and *WILL* use information on the return strip as evidence against you. This has been done in the past and the practice has been upheld by the full board of the NTSB.

 

[A Squared]

More on the subject

The NTSB decision I spoke of in the previous post can be seen here:

http://www.ntsb.gov/alj/O_n_O/docs/aviation/4609.PDF


It's pretty much as I described it, however, I also discovered that since this decision, the FAA's Office of Chief Counsel has issued a memorandun stating that it is the FAA's official policy to not use *any* information from an ASRS report, even information on the identification strip, which was found to be admissable by this NTSB decision. I haven't actually seen this memorandum myself, but I read about it in "Pilot Counsel" in the May 1999 issue of AOPA Pilot

 

[midlifeflyer]

What happens though if the FAA comes knocking some day and they find you have been filing 6 NASA forms a year for the past 10 years..

Sometimes we get so caught up in the CYA part of the form that we forget it's purpose.

The whole idea is to provide information that will enhance safety. NASA collects the information and prepares reports on certain issues. Some of them are pretty interesting. But anyway, if you are involved in a situation that has the potential to affect safety, where there was any kind of violation or not, it could be viewed as your "civic duty" to file a report.

The FAA thought that the data collection process for this was so important that it passed the regs and rules about not using them, so people wouldn't be afraid to file them. In fact, NASA is involved precisely for that reason - concern that people wouldn't send "confessions" directly to the FAA no matter what they said.

So, no, there's no reason not to file one and the FAA won't come looking for they guy who filed a whole bunch of them, even if they could find out. As A Squared explained, there is confidentiality built into the system (if you do it right)

The number limit you heard about involves the number of times that you can get the pass, =if= there is an enforcement hearing. The "get out of jail free" portion can't be used if there was an enforcement hearing with a violation found within the previous 5 years.

Heck, so long as you filed it correctly, the FAA doesn't even know you filed it if they do bring an enforcement hearing unless you tell them. A common tactic used by lawyers who represent people in enforcement proceedings is to not mention anything about the filing unless there is a formal finding of violation.

The best thing to do to answer your questions is to go over to http://asrs.arc.nasa.gov/ and brows through the site.

 

[501261]

WHY NOT FILE ONE?

My motto is "File one once a week", granted the laziness inside of me has kept me from filing one in about a year, but seriously if you feel you did something that might get a Letter of Investigation, its nice to have that NASA form in you back pocket to keep from serving the suspension.

There's a reason most professional pilots keep a ASRS form in there flight bag!

 

[:-)]

I was going to file one two years ago, then the shuttle blue up. Now I don't want to be astronaut any longer.

 

[furloughfodder]

When to file a NASA form?

Never.