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when cleared for a visual...

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densoo

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 2, 2004
Posts
2,054
...what is the min altitude you should go to?

The MSA is 2700', approach has us on a dogleg to final at 3000'. We call the runway in sight and approach clears us for the visual, contact tower. We descend to 2000'. Question came up later as to whether MSA was governing in this situation. We were 10 miles from runway so we were well below a normal descent gradient to the runway (ie., no need to go to 2000'). We were no longer under ATC control. We were not on a published segment of any approach. VMC. AIM says MSA gives 1000' above obstacles.

Would the 2700' MSA in this situation be minimum you'd want to go to?
 
Hmm.

I operate into airports that have terrain- that's an obvious answer.

But we also go into places that have ginormous towers within the 10 mile ring. They're also 'arrowed' on the Jepp as the highest obstacle, hence the MSA is predicated on that. If I know that tower is east of final for a southerly runway, and I'm landing east- I know where NOT to go if I do a GA.

Interesting question.
 
Don't over think it. Use "see and avoid" my friend. If you were cleared for the visual into Aspen or Vail (et al) and stayed at the MSA you'd never land.
 
Executing a visual is essentially pilotage, allowing you to descend as needed to land. The MSA is generally used in an emergency situation in IMC for obstacle clearance. Bascially when things go awry you adhere to the MSA to keep you from a CFIT.

As an analogy, pretend you're a VFR pilot on a VFR flight plan.... and fly to the field accordingly. Knowledge of the MSA and the location of obstacles are stated prominently on the plate and assist in making the visual transition. This is somehting the avg. VFR pilot won't have, other than a terminal chart.

Back up the visual with the frequencies and watch the PAPI and VASI as well.
 
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ditto the above. my personal SOP is I go to the TPA and descend from there. I don't do this 40 miles out of course, but inside the 25 mile MSA ring, go down to MSA, then once 2-3 miles out, ease down to TPA

In some places in the winter at night (Midland, Texas), you can pick up the airport 40 miles away, obviously you need to be heads up if (and they will) they clear you for the visual.

when flying in South America, my SOP was

MEA to MSA to TPA
 
OK. Thanks for the replies. As I said we were still pretty far out. 2000' at 10 miles is lower than I normally see. I was doing some serious "see and avoid" for the "ginormous towers" which was my main concern. This was in Tampa to 18L so it is pretty flat otherwise, and we were nowhere near final. Yea, at some point you have to start down. This one just struck me as a bit early, and then the question came up....what is really governing.

Similar thing happened to me many years ago going into MSY with a visual. In this case, the tower asked how low we were going to go because I think he had a radar that showed our altitude and we were below a sector altitude.
 
Also if you are approaching from opposite the final traffic(in other words, you will do a downwind), does approach tell you which direction to enter the traffic(ex-enter right/left downwind). Also, how do airline pilots find TPA? Its not on approach plates. Is it just 1500 feet above airport elevation? How would say an airline crew from overseas know this? I dont think they would have the AFD on them
 
TPA for turbines is 1500 AGL. That advice from Satpak77 is ideal: MEA to MSA to TPA. Unless the MSA is jacked way up for just one obstacle.I dropped to 1000 AGL on a visual a long time ago and watched a radio tower sail past my left wingtip in reduced visibility. It was totally legal, a single-pilot freight gig, and very unsafe. Never again.
 
Also if you are approaching from opposite the final traffic(in other words, you will do a downwind), does approach tell you which direction to enter the traffic(ex-enter right/left downwind). Also, how do airline pilots find TPA? Its not on approach plates. Is it just 1500 feet above airport elevation? How would say an airline crew from overseas know this? I dont think they would have the AFD on them

1500 AGL for turbine ops and 1000 AGL for piston is pretty much accepted worldwide. The 1500 AGL I think is buried in ICAO regs somewhere, don't know tho. Overseas, yes, they know this. Remember, the FAR's require you be familiar with the destination airport (unless it's an emergency divert, etc), so it is kinda expected that you, the PIC, will find out the traffic pattern from the AFD, segmented circle, or simply by listening to the Unicom while still 50 miles out to "get a feel" for the traffic.
 
Who thinks this crap up?

Just fly the airplane, dont try to reinvent the wing while doing it. 3 to 1 rule, keep it simple, period.
 

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