When can you descend

[pilotman2105]

And, that question remains unanswered...

To you perhaps. To the FAA, other pilots, and myself, it's resolved.

 

[philo beddoe]

I can cite the exception that proves the rule:

http://naco.faa.gov/d-tpp/0409/09142N13.PDF

Download the NDB 13 For Appleton MN, and pay close attention to the procedure note that is asterisked.

It states that you must maintain 3300 or above until established outbound.

What need would there be to issue this restriction if it was necessary to maintain last assigned altitude until established outbound.

Answer: None.



To understand this issue, you must be familiar with the protected area for procedure turns.

As one previous poster sugested, your ability to descend is based on whther or not you are on the PT side of the outbound course as you turn outbound.

This is not a restriction. You have 4 miles on the NON-PT side before you even hit the secondary obstacle clearance area.

As long as you are going to turn outbound when you hit the VOR, you can descend to the outbound altitude, unless there is a procedure note as shown in the example.

It doesn't matter if you are on the "correct side" (no such thing) of the outbound course. Hit the VOR, start your turn and descend.


Now, you MUST be on the correct side when you do the PT, because it is assumed that you are leaving the course to essentially dead reckon your PT.

You have 8 miles of primary protected area to the side of the course at the ten mile outer limit. At the IAF, you have 6.

On the 'non-protected' side, you have 4 miles all the way out to the ten mile limit.

If I can find a pic of the PT template, I'll post it.

 

[A Squared]

Philo,

You know, what I posted first (before the editing and backtracking) was essentially what you posted here ... then I read the relevant TERPs section, and saw it differently, and decided to edit my post, now im reading your post and I see the compelling logic in your "exception which proves the rule". D@mn.... I wonder if this is what Kerry feels like.

 

[Jeff Helgeson]

Keep it simple! Answer the original question.

If you are cleared for a vor approach (full procedure) when can you descend to the outbound leg altitude. Is it once you cross the vor or do you have to be established on the outbound radial prior to descending.

Thanks

If I understand your quote correctly, I'll assume you mean a procedure turn after crossing a VOR. Look at the VOR on the approach plate, it should have (IAF) under the name of the fix. (IAF), you are established on the approach phase, you are cleared to descend.

Remember the 5 Ts:

Turn
Time
Twist
Throttle (retard and descend)
Talk

I hope that answers your question.

 

[bafanguy]

2105,


...okee-dokee..

 

[midlifeflyer]

And, that question remains unanswered...

Only if you want it to be.

==============================
ESTABLISHED - To be stable or fixed on a route, route segment, altitude, heading, etc.
==============================

seems about as simple and understandable as it can be.

 

[philo beddoe]

When you hit the VOR and start to turn, you are established on that segment. That is why they give you 4 or more nm of protection in the primary area alone.

Check out that plate for appleton again. Why the procedure note if being established on the RADIAL was always a condition of descent?

Being established on a radial and being established on a segment of the approach can mean two different things.

To be fair, I believe that the military requires their pilots to be firmly on the radio prior to descent, but that does not prove anything about civilian regulations.

Point of order: If you are established on an airway that bends sharply at a vor and overshoot the new radial, are you temporarily not established, requiring you to consider the sector altitude? I think not.


Here's a question for all of you:

When do you report "established in the hold"?

A. When you first cross the holding fix.
B. When you turn outbound
C. After completing the entry on your first inbound leg
D. After you get the 1 min inbound all worked out


And to clarify the point again, you may descend regardless of the direction from which you arrive at the IAF. There is no "wrong" side when turning outbound, so no worries about overshoot. Personally, I lead the turn by about .7-.9 dme if available jsut to make a clean intercept. But then, I usually make a hold-type entry instead of the standard PT, since it is sompler and a more elegant solution than the dull axe that is the PT.

Caveat: Hold type entries do not work as well if there is a lot of altitude to lose outbound or inbound.

 

[TonyC]

If you are cleared for a vor approach (full procedure) when can you descend to the outbound leg altitude. Is it once you cross the vor or do you have to be established on the outbound radial prior to descending.

Thanks

It's rather amusing to see all the twists and turns the answer to this simple question can take.

To begin with, let's assume that ACAFool intended to specify a Procedure Turn type of Instrument Approach Procedure, as opposed to a teardrop approach or procedure track of some sort. If so, then there IS no "outbound radial." The procedure turn has an INbound Course, and a manuevering side.

Examine the question further, and notice the poser asks a multiple choice question:

Is it (A) once you cross the vor or (B) do you have to be established on the outbound radial prior to descending.

Since we've already established that there is no outbound radial, the answer must be (A)!







.

 

[bafanguy]

Midlifeflyer,


Okee, dokee... was just trying to have a little shoptalk with fellow aviators on an interesting technical issue. MEA CULPA !!! ...oops, mea culpa...

I still seriously doubt a dictionary definition suffices for an area where things are so carefully defined ( legally and technically ) as they are in instrument flying. But...that's just one guy's opinion.

ASquared seems to have a handle on the TERPS stuff.

 

[midlifeflyer]

I still seriously doubt a dictionary definition suffices for an area where things are so carefully defined ( legally and technically ) as they are in instrument flying.

In other words, it depends on what the meaning of "is" is?

That English thing? There's an awful lot of it going around.

ATC: Climb and maintain 8 thousand feet.
Pilot: What do you mean by "feet"? I can't find a definition in the FAR! Nor can I find definitions for "climb", "maintain", "eight" or "thousand". How do you expect me to know what to do?

 

[Uncle Sparky]

Now THAT'S funny!

Obviously, there are tolerances built into the system since neither people nor navigational aids are perfect

I think the answer is hinged on this statement. The reason that no defined numbers or tolerances are published regarding what is ESTABLISHED is because, as it was stated, it's human nature to bend the rules. So when a particular approach is developed, the courses, routes, and altitudes have to be established with a degree of "fudge factor".
I used to tell my students to not fixate on hold entries, "you're gonna be disregarding aviation rule NO.1, you'll be trying to hold the "Vulcan Peace Sign" over the DG with one hand and have a note pad, pencil and caculator in the other and in the mean time, will be flying into some mountain because you've blown past the holding fix."
If I am approaching the holding fix directly from the direction of the inbound leg and decide to do a PARALLEL entry instead of direct "there won't be an FAA helicopter there waiting to give me a ticket!"
In my opinion, the question has been answered. You may descend once Established(as defined), unless other specifics of the particular approach have otherwise been published(as has been discussed).

 

[lawfly]

The relevant crash was in the 70's, an arrival to Dulles, I believe. 727 or -9. Eastern? Accident aircraft was cleared for approach while still a ways out. And was not yet 'established' on any published segment of the approach procedure. And terminology back then was simply "cleared for the approach". Descended into terrain.
Once cleared the approach, can descend when "established" on published segment of the approach procedure for which a lower altitude is published. "Established" is not precisely defined anywhere by reference to instrument indications and will depend in part upon intercept angle, aircraft speed, wind speed/direction, etc., which in turn will affect the speed at which the needle is moving/centering, assuming there is a needle/CDI involved. Also, on whether it's a localizer or a less sensitive directional system. The biggie here I think is the published approach segment.
The Terminal Arrival Area descriptions in the AIM look interesting. (e.g. Figures 5-4-7, 5-4-8).

 

[Uncle Sparky]

..............."Established" is not precisely defined anywhere by reference to instrument indications and will depend in part upon intercept angle, aircraft speed, wind speed/direction, etc., which in turn will affect the speed at which the needle is moving/centering, assuming there is a needle/CDI involved. Also, on whether it's a localizer or a less sensitive directional system. ................

That's the point that I was trying to make with my obtuse FAA helicopter scenario.
I wouldn't want to intentionally make a 210 degree turn away from the fix towards the the "unsafe" side of the holding course. On the same token, there aren't complete dimensions for a holding 'racetrack', beyond leg distance and overall approach tolerances(MSA, MOCA, "do not exceed XX DME" notations) either. If I DO have a strong tail wind as I cross the fix or if I enter the hold from the direction of the dividing line for the parallel/direct sectors or am unfortunate enough to encounter both elements at once.........I may be flying a minute or so out in "unsafe side" land before I can become ESTABLISHED.

I may allow for a degree of tolerance as far personal standards for hold entries but if this same hold is associated with an approach, of course I will lead a radial but I'm not going to DESCEND until the needle is centered.

 

[100LL... Again!]

That is a common technique, but is not required. Most folks I know use a live needle.


Me, I use station passage plus a turn outbound.

4nm is a lot of real estate.

 

[igneousy2]

Now THAT'S funny!

I used to tell my students to not fixate on hold entries, "you're gonna be disregarding aviation rule NO.1, you'll be trying to hold the "Vulcan Peace Sign" over the DG with one hand and have a note pad, pencil and caculator in the other and in the mean time, will be flying into some mountain because you've blown past the holding fix."
If I am approaching the holding fix directly from the direction of the inbound leg and decide to do a PARALLEL entry instead of direct "there won't be an FAA helicopter there waiting to give me a ticket!"

Your student's will be fine unless they happen to be in a simulator for an airline interview.

I do agree with what you are saying, I am amazed that anyone can actually draw a hold entry out while still keeping the shiney side up. I have never drawn a hold in my life except as a flight instructor during initial holding ground.