When can you descend

[ACAFool]

If you are cleared for a vor approach (full procedure) when can you descend to the outbound leg altitude. Is it once you cross the vor or do you have to be established on the outbound radial prior to descending.

Thanks

 

[pilotman2105]

If you are cleared for a vor approach (full procedure) when can you descend to the outbound leg altitude. Is it once you cross the vor or do you have to be established on the outbound radial prior to descending.

Thanks

"November 12345, maintain 3,500 UNTIL ESTABLISHED, cleared vor 12 approach."

Once you're established on a published portion of the approach per the approach plate, you are able to descend to the altitude applicable for that portion of the approach.

I think that there was an airline accident that mandated the use of the phrase "maintain x altitude until established." I don't remember which one off the top of my head, and quite frankly don't care to look it up that much.

 

[RipCurl]

1. Cleared
2. Established
3. Within 10(?) miles of the fix

 

[91100 100 set]

I've heard debate about this since the begining of my instrument training. I assume you're talking about whether or not the needle on the HSI or OBS is moving? Like you just crossed the station and the needle hasn't settled down yet or is still pegged on the side? I've never heard on official explanation, and had people argue both ways. I figure, if you just crossed over the station, heading in the right general direction (give or take any wind which you may or may not have figured out yet), and know exactly where you are, go ahead and start on down. Just make sure you center that needle in short order if you do. Otherwise you can spend all day fidgeting with the needle and run out of 10 miles to make your PT.

 

[Thedude]

Within 10 miles of the fix has nothing to do with starting a descent. Some approaches have arc that are in excess of 20 miles of the station. Pilotkman has it right, you must be on the pulblished segment of the approach. (the short version).
The 10 miles is max distance from the FAF and that had to do with terrain clearance for a course reversal procedure.
Any of you new CFI-Is or Terps experts care to elaborate.

 

[bafanguy]

This is actually an interesting subject for which there is no clear answer that I've been able to find. I did a bit of research on this over the years and only got a bit more confused.


We've all heard this phrase used in clearances "...maintainXXX until established...". I asked an FAA inspector friend to find me "THE Official FAA Definition". He and his officemates spent two days and could not locate any FAA document defining it. Amazing, huh ?

Well, my company had a definition they claimed came from the FAA Inspectors Handbook. Why such info would be located there??? You tell me. My FAA inspector friend could find no such reference.

But, my company said it was "...5-5-alive..." Within 5 degrees of course centerline on VOR & NDB and LOC alive for LOC/ILS approaches.

Well, that got changed further over time based on what my company said was ICAO-based criteria ( can't say one way or the other...maybe YOU can...). Let me Quote from my company Ops Specs:

"The aircraft shall cross the fix or facility and fly outbound on the specified track as necessary to the specified altitude. If a further descent is specified after the inbound turn, the descent shall not be started until established on the inbound track("established" is considered being within half scale deflection for the ILS and VOR, or within +/-5 degrees of the required bearing for the NDB)."

Well, on HSI's "half scale" is one dot. So, it's one dot...one dot...five.

When you get started talking about this TERPS-OPS SPECS-FAR-ATC procedures, you open a can of worms. I guess my point is "show me the Official FAA Document". If it's buried in some obscure place only F. Lee Bailey knows about, why is it there rather than in a book/document/FAR where pilots have ready access to it ?

This was a great question and shows how confusing some everyday issues can be.

I've given the garden-variety line pilot point of view. Now....all you F. Lee Bailey's...what say ye ??????

 

[pilotman2105]

We've all heard this phrase used in clearances "...maintainXXX until established...". I asked an FAA inspector friend to find me "THE Official FAA Definition". He and his officemates spent two days and could not locate any FAA document defining it. Amazing, huh ?

I don't know what you mean by "THE Office FAA Definition," but here is an FAA publication stating the requirement:

7110.65
4-8-1
b - For aircarft operating on unpublished routes, issue the approach clearance only after the aircraft is:
2 - Assigned an altitude to maintain until the aircraft is established on a segment of a published route or instrument approach procedure.
Note
1. The altitude assigned must assure IFR obstruction clearance from the piont at which the approach clearance is issued until established on a segment of a published route or instrument approach procedure.

If you're wondering what officially qualifies as "established," check the AIM. It has information about anticipating turns to a new radial over a VOR/fix, etc.

Between those two sources, looks pretty cut and dried to me.

 

[bafanguy]

2105,


Your reply illustrates the problem. You quoted 7110...the air traffic controller's handbook !!! Do YOU have a subscription...do most pilots read this ?? And, what's more, the quote did NOT answer the question.

Your AIM reference refers to en route course changes, not instrument approaches.

By "Offical FAA Definition", I mean..SHOW ME WHERE IN YOUR OFFICIAL GOVERNMENT DOCUMENTS YOU HAVE DEFINED " ESTABLISHED ON AN APPROACH PROCEDURE COURSE "
Based on your references, it is anything BUT "...cut and dried...". In fact, you have demonstrated how confusing this issue is.

Show me the definition...

 

[willis]

Lets see here

From what I remember established on an instrument approach means VOR less than 3/4 scale-NDB within 10 degress of course. The instrument PTS states 2 different standards one for not on the Final Approach segment (less than a full scale deflection) and for on the final approach segment( no more than a 3/4 scale deflection). However in the case of an RMI regardless of which segment you are on you are to be within 10 degress of course. However the ATP PTS requires max of 1/4 scale for ILS. I guess since I brought up the ATP standards being different that Instrument rated pilots maybe my guess of what it means to be established is shot out the window. I would imagine the answer would bw found in the TERPS manual. The more I type the less I feel I know the answer so I'll quit.
Peace

 

[bafanguy]

Willis,


I feel your pain, Bro !! I don't know what "instrument PTS" or "ATP PTS" is. If you are referring to an FAA Flight Test Standards Guide delineating acceptable deviations for an FAA rating/check ride, then we're not talking apples and apples.

SHOW ME THE FRIGGIN' FAA DOCUMENT THAT DEFINES "...ESTABLISHED ON..." for purposes of you and I, as regular guys flying an approach to earn a living without huring anyone. SHOW ME...

And don't quote 7110.65(e)...pilots don't read the Air Traffic Controllers Handbook, nor are they required to.

I'm on your side...great question, huh ??