What's wrong with this holding clearence??

[81Horse]

Hi, New Guy. Welcome to the biggest timesuck ever.

You're right -- badly worded clearance, and no EFC.

 

[Holding Short]

Thanks 81Horse

HS

 

[Hold West]

Reality check time! Someone up topic mentioned that most holds are a cluster. That's absolutely correct, since they are almost always at very short notice - as a result of the approach control or the next sector suddenly stopping taking handoffs, for a wide variety of reasons.

It sucks as much for me as it does for you.

Now, picture you being #1 in a string of airplanes, all heading for the same fix, all descending to the same altitude. Suddenly, I'm shut off, and I have to stop all those airplanes, and separate them in a holding stack. Sure I'd like to say "American 297, cleared to BAMBO, hold Northeast as published, maintain one-zero thousand, expects further clearance zero-zero-three-five", then wait while you read it all back, and tack on "oh, and request twenty mile legs". The problem is there's an MD-11 6.5 miles behind you that's going to eat your lunch unless I get him stopped too, and during the time it takes me to go through that first exchange, he's moved another 5 miles and descended a thousand feet.

So if I'm stopping a line, it's going to sound something like that. "American 297, hold at BAMBO, stand by for EFC", then "FedEx 1806, hold at BAMBO, maintain 11,000", then "Hawaiian 17, hold at BAMBO, maintain 12,000." Once I get all the descents stopped, and vertical separation in the holding stack assured, then I will go back and start with the EFCs, and let everyone know why I'm holding (if I even know), approve 20 miles legs, etc.

No-notice holding sucks. I by far prefer to know it's coming, and take it all in a leisurely fashion, but that's pretty rare.

My technique if you are already at or past the holding fix is to turn you out on a vector close to the outbound leg of the holding patern, then vector you back to the inbound radial or send you direct to the holding fix with appropriate instructions. That's my technique, and it's what I teach, but experience levels vary, so we just all need to be alert and get along as best we can.

Aloha!

 

[GravityHater]

Sometimes we are all bitch and moan about atc ("why the f do they DO that?") and then a guy from the other side of the mic hops in and explains what they have to cope with in the same sitch. Thanks, HW - not just for posting that reply but for....keeping us apart every day.

 

[skipper1]

Anyone...?

I'm sorry...this is not completely related to the topic but this thread got me thinking. Does anyone think it would be useful to add an ATC section to this forum?

 

[Hold West]

Well, Gravity Hater, thanks for flying, and thus insuring I have a job!

Not every situation is as dramatic as I paint it - but usually when a guy is giving clearances like that, something bad is going on. Not to say that there aren't just plain old lazy, or underskilled (shall we say) controllers out there. Usually though something's going wrong.

Thanks!

 

[FreightPup]

Hey Hold West,
You all have a job I could never do. Thanks for looking after us!!

 

[Captain4242]

Hold West,
I'm the one who started the thread. I appreciate your input, but it really didn't answer my question.
It was a "no notice hold", but that's not my problem. My problem is that I was cleared to XXXXX, while flying (nearly) south. If I am on a heading of 180, cleard to XXXXX, and hold 10 north of XXXXX, I'm going past the hold point, to make a 180 degree turn back to the fix...then hold. It really was confusing.

 

[Hold West]

Hold West,
I'm the one who started the thread. I appreciate your input, but it really didn't answer my question.
It was a "no notice hold", but that's not my problem. My problem is that I was cleared to XXXXX, while flying (nearly) south. If I am on a heading of 180, cleard to XXXXX, and hold 10 north of XXXXX, I'm going past the hold point, to make a 180 degree turn back to the fix...then hold. It really was confusing.

Cap'n, there's no way I can answer your question. First, the details are a little spare. Where were you, what altitude, what facility were you talking to, how many other airplanes were on freq, how many getting held, what was the weather, etc? Even with all that, the best I can do is make a semi-educated guess at what happened, which I pretty much already have.

That's the problem with this kind of question. I get them from pilots a lot. "How come I got slowed to 250K, turned 90 deg. off course, then turned back in and told to go 320 indicated last week Wednesday?" I don't know; I wasn't there. ATC, just like the pilot's world is very dynamic, there are 1,000 ways to skin a cat and which method gets used when is dictated by the moment. And a fleeting moment it is!

It would be like expecting you to answer "why did the aircarrier jet I worked last month go around becasue he was too high on final, after I gave him a PD descent from FL190 to 3,000 80 miles from the airport, and cleared him for a visual approach 25 miles from the airport? And why did I have to scramble with the the guy behind him, who was doing 360K over the ground, into the wind, diving at the field out of 6,000 feet?" You weren't in either cockpit, you can't answer beyond generalities.

As I've said, my personal technique if I have to pull you back to a holding fix you have already passed is to vector you back to the radial or fix. That's what I would do, becasue I've learned through being in same situation you describe, that it's easier and less confusing. I can't speak for what was happening to you at that moment, though. I've been stuck in ugly situations like that before, where the fact that I'm getting shut off is relayed to me by a pilot coming back on my frequency after I sent him to the next sector: "They sent me back and told me to tell you I have to hold!" Now there's a technique for you!

So, I'm sorry I can't answer you specifically about that situation, but I think only the one or two specific controllers could, and they aren't here to do it.

Now, if I'm misunderstanding what your question really is, try rephrasing it a bit for my small, government mind, and I'll take another shot! :laugh:

Take care out there.

 

[Hold West]

OK, I see why this board is such a timesucker!

I found SWOMP - Cap'n, can I assume you were assigned the FRWAY1 arrival to PBI? Here's the chart, for those following along.