What's wrong with this holding clearence??

[Hold West]

Well, Gravity Hater, thanks for flying, and thus insuring I have a job!

Not every situation is as dramatic as I paint it - but usually when a guy is giving clearances like that, something bad is going on. Not to say that there aren't just plain old lazy, or underskilled (shall we say) controllers out there. Usually though something's going wrong.

Thanks!

 

[FreightPup]

Hey Hold West,
You all have a job I could never do. Thanks for looking after us!!

 

[Captain4242]

Hold West,
I'm the one who started the thread. I appreciate your input, but it really didn't answer my question.
It was a "no notice hold", but that's not my problem. My problem is that I was cleared to XXXXX, while flying (nearly) south. If I am on a heading of 180, cleard to XXXXX, and hold 10 north of XXXXX, I'm going past the hold point, to make a 180 degree turn back to the fix...then hold. It really was confusing.

 

[Hold West]

Hold West,
I'm the one who started the thread. I appreciate your input, but it really didn't answer my question.
It was a "no notice hold", but that's not my problem. My problem is that I was cleared to XXXXX, while flying (nearly) south. If I am on a heading of 180, cleard to XXXXX, and hold 10 north of XXXXX, I'm going past the hold point, to make a 180 degree turn back to the fix...then hold. It really was confusing.

Cap'n, there's no way I can answer your question. First, the details are a little spare. Where were you, what altitude, what facility were you talking to, how many other airplanes were on freq, how many getting held, what was the weather, etc? Even with all that, the best I can do is make a semi-educated guess at what happened, which I pretty much already have.

That's the problem with this kind of question. I get them from pilots a lot. "How come I got slowed to 250K, turned 90 deg. off course, then turned back in and told to go 320 indicated last week Wednesday?" I don't know; I wasn't there. ATC, just like the pilot's world is very dynamic, there are 1,000 ways to skin a cat and which method gets used when is dictated by the moment. And a fleeting moment it is!

It would be like expecting you to answer "why did the aircarrier jet I worked last month go around becasue he was too high on final, after I gave him a PD descent from FL190 to 3,000 80 miles from the airport, and cleared him for a visual approach 25 miles from the airport? And why did I have to scramble with the the guy behind him, who was doing 360K over the ground, into the wind, diving at the field out of 6,000 feet?" You weren't in either cockpit, you can't answer beyond generalities.

As I've said, my personal technique if I have to pull you back to a holding fix you have already passed is to vector you back to the radial or fix. That's what I would do, becasue I've learned through being in same situation you describe, that it's easier and less confusing. I can't speak for what was happening to you at that moment, though. I've been stuck in ugly situations like that before, where the fact that I'm getting shut off is relayed to me by a pilot coming back on my frequency after I sent him to the next sector: "They sent me back and told me to tell you I have to hold!" Now there's a technique for you!

So, I'm sorry I can't answer you specifically about that situation, but I think only the one or two specific controllers could, and they aren't here to do it.

Now, if I'm misunderstanding what your question really is, try rephrasing it a bit for my small, government mind, and I'll take another shot! :laugh:

Take care out there.

 

[Hold West]

OK, I see why this board is such a timesucker!

I found SWOMP - Cap'n, can I assume you were assigned the FRWAY1 arrival to PBI? Here's the chart, for those following along.

 

[Vastly Underemp]

Seems fairly simple to me. "Cleared to SWOMP" is a clearance limit. If you get to your EFC time you leave the hold and go to SWOMP, then hold as published. In the mean time, you hold 10 north of SWOMP until your EFC time. I'm sure that's not what the controller meant, but that would satisfy the clearance. The fact that the controller admonished Captain for wrong-way turns in the hold indicates he wanted Captain to hold at SWOMP (and that Captain made a correct assumption on direction of turn).
Just like us pilots controllers get tongue tied, busy, tired, taken by surprise and had all their careful planning thrown out the window, and experience cases of tongue-tied-I-know-you-said-what-I-meant-you-heard. A clarification, at the appropriate time, works wonders. Remember, you can always refuse a clearance; just be prepared to hear "cleared directly out of my airspace, squalk 1200, frequently change your shoes."

 

[UndauntedFlyer]

I am amazed that all of these posters have been willing to accept that holding clearance without requesting clarification. The clearance was clearly illegal and not clear as to what should be done. The clearance limit was SWOMP so that must be the holding fix but a 10 mile fix was assigned too. This is impossible to do, holding in two places at the same time. If a pilot accepted this clearance and caused a separation problem by holding at the unintended point, both the pilot and the controller would be in trouble. 14CFR 91.123(a) says: “When a pilot is uncertain of an ATC clearance, that pilot shall immediately request clarification from ATC.”

 

[Vastly Underemp]

see previous post......a clearance limit is not necessarily the holding point

 

[UndauntedFlyer]

Seems fairly simple to me. "Cleared to SWOMP" is a clearance limit. If you get to your EFC time you leave the hold and go to SWOMP, then hold as published. In the mean time, you hold 10 north of SWOMP until your EFC time.

All of the above is 100% INCORRECT, except that SWAMP is your clearance limit.

 

[Hold West]

see previous post......a clearance limit is not necessarily the holding point

Nope. Your holding point is your clearance limit. "Cleared to SWOMP, hold northeast as published..."

You're not cleared to the airport any more, gotta stop at SWOMP.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
7110.65:

[SIZE=+1]Section 6. Holding Aircraft[/SIZE]​

4-6-1. CLEARANCE TO HOLDING FIX​

Consider operational factors such as length of delay, holding airspace limitations, navigational aids, altitude, meteorological conditions when necessary to clear an aircraft to a fix other than the destination airport. Issue the following:​

a. Clearance limit (if any part of the route beyond a clearance limit differs from the last routing cleared, issue the route the pilot can expect beyond the clearance limit).​

PHRASEOLOGY-
EXPECT FURTHER CLEARANCE VIA (routing).​

EXAMPLE-
"Expect further clearance via direct Stillwater V-O-R, Victor Two Twenty-Six Snapy intersection, direct Newark."​

b. Holding instructions.​

1. Holding instructions may be eliminated when you inform the pilot that no delay is expected.​

2. When the pattern is charted, you may omit all holding instructions except the charted holding direction and the statement "as published." Always issue complete holding instructions when the pilot requests them.​

NOTE-
The most generally used holding patterns are depicted on U.S. Government or commercially produced low/high altitude en route, area, and STAR Charts.​

PHRASEOLOGY-
CLEARED TO (fix), HOLD (direction), AS PUBLISHED,

or

CLEARED TO (fix), NO DELAY EXPECTED.​

c. EFC. Do not specify this item if no delay is expected.
​

------------------------------------------------------------------------
​

​

Then, when cleared to exit the hold, "Cleared to <destination airport> via last routing cleared:

7110.65:

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

4-6-2. CLEARANCE BEYOND FIX​

a. If no delay is expected, issue a clearance beyond the clearance limit as soon as possible and, whenever possible, at least 5 minutes before the aircraft reaches the fix.​

b. Include the following items when issuing clearance beyond a clearance limit:​

1. Clearance limit or approach clearance.​

2. Route of flight. Specify one of the following:​

(a) Complete details of the route (airway, route, course, fix(es), azimuth course, heading, arc, or vector.)​

(b) The phrase "via last routing cleared." Use this phrase only when the most recently issued routing to the new clearance limit is valid and verbiage will be reduced.​

PHRASEOLOGY-
VIA LAST ROUTING CLEARED.​

3. Assigned altitude if different from present altitude.
​

​

 

[Hold West]

All of the above is 100% incorrect

And that statement is 100% correct!

 

[81Horse]

Nope. Your holding point is your clearance limit. "Cleared to SWOMP, hold northeast as published..."

But the original post gave this as the clearance received:

"Cleared to SWOMP. Hold north 10 miles north of SWOMP on the 030 radial...".

-- which still seems like a bogus clearance to me, since the instruction is to hold ten miles before the clearance limit (which is what led to the pilot's confusion in the first place).

Even if the controller was going down the tubes, the pilot should have asked for some clarification.

 

[Hold West]

Horse, you're right, but my comment was directed back at the guy who said you can hold somewhere else than your clearance limit.

The original clearance was f**ked up, no question. The original poster never ansered my question about what route he was flying. If he was indeed on the FRWAY1 to PBI, it makes even less sense, since there is a published holding pattern at SWOMP. I wonder why the published hold is offset 2 degrees from the inbound track to SWOMP?

I wonder if the controller had a reason to issue an impromptu holding fix and just stumbled over the phraseology? I'm not even sure how to say it, since it's an RNAV fix and procedure. "Hold 10 miles NE of SWOMP on the 233 degree track to SWOMP"? I can handle NDBs (bearing from, course to!) but not RNAV fixes, unless I hold at the RNAV fix itself. To throw it even further off, SWOMP is on the 025 radial from PBI, not the 030.

You're right, wait for a break in the action and request a clarification. More than once in my life I've unkeyed the mike and thought "That sounded confusing as hell!" and had the pilot come back and tell me the same thing!

 

[81Horse]

I wonder if the controller had a reason to issue an impromptu holding fix and just stumbled over the phraseology?

Sounds likely. I find, "Say again all after 'Cleared to ...'" works really well for me.

 

[Vastly Underemp]

I think we can all agree that the clearance was messed and clarification was in order. But just for discussion, let's assume that was exactly what the controller intended....cleared to SWOMP, hold 10NE of SWOMP on the 030...

Hold West, are you saying that ATC can't issue a clearance limit that is beyond my hold point? I've had that very thing happen; when there wasn't enough room in the stack for us we were issued a clearance limit at the stack point (a charted hold) but asked to hold 50 miles prior to that point for 2 turns to allow time to reduce the stack. Any comments? If I'm believeing something incorrect I'd like to get it straightened out to make your job easier and keep myself out of the chief pilot's office. Thanks