What's wrong with Mesa?

[weekendwarrior]

Excuse my ignorance, but I keep hearing people bash Mesa with no substinance. Can anyone give me some concrete reasons (based on experience, not heresay) as to why Mesa Airlines stinks so bad?

 

[aviatrix]

In a nutshell, they have a great pilot group but horribly incompetent management, which makes for a real mess! Their growth and attrition right now is just too much for the company and they're burgeoning at the seams!

 

[MW44]

For godsakes man are you kidding? Do a search on Mesa and you'll probably pull up a thousand threads that will answer your question. If you don't care about "upholding the profession", quality of life, your paycheck, what other regional pilots think about you, etc, then go and get some relatively quick pic turbine time. You could help JO buy his 20th motorcycle.

 

[stuart716]

what airline do you work for mw44? have you ever worked at mesa? its easy to talk trash on this board, but i have never had someone say to my face that we arent holding up the profession. i agree we may not be setting the bar at the level of a major, but it could also be a lot worse.

 

[zeroline]

You Must Be Ignorant

In a nutshell, they have a great pilot group but horribly incompetent management, which makes for a real mess! Their growth and attrition right now is just too much for the company and they're burgeoning at the seams!

A great pilot group?!?!?!? The word GREAT should never be used near that airline. The pilots who moved over to freedom air might as well be SCABs. (not including CCair guys) The reason everyone hates mesa is because they are undercutting the industry with their low poverty wages. And although JO is a piece of $h!t, you cant blame it all on the mangement. The pilots voted for the contract. And of course you'll hear them say they had no choice. Agreeing to the contract was supposedly the only way to the get rid of the whole Freedom air mess. I call Bull$h!t!! They did have another option. They coulve gone on strike instead of giving in.

 

[weekendwarrior]

Allright, not to get into a pis$ing contest or anything, but aren't there low wages accross all the regional airlines for the entry level guys? I mean I understand QOL and everything, but isn't this industry about paying your dues? Low paying CFI's, Banner Tows, checks, etc?

Now, if one was planning to make a career out of the little guys, waiting for the upgrade, etc, I could understand the long term concern. But, if you are there as a stepping stone to better opportunities, what's so different about getting ripped off at Mesa or at a flight school?

I must be missing something here. It appears to me that people are quite frequently complaining about the regionals, when my understanding its just another place to cut your teeth until you get to the majors. Please, correct my ignorance.

Now, with regards to what people think about you if you work at Mesa. Lets assume you are a 1000 hour CFI making $800/month. You get an offer from Mesa, but no where else. Is it safe to say that you would hold out for another gig, and continue to do slam and goes in a 152 all day? If the opportunity is there, I say suck it up, pay your dues for a couple of years, and move on. Or, is Mesa on your resume just as bad as having freedom or some PFT?

Without the flames, I'm just looking for guidance here. I still don't get what makes regional X better than Mesa, if it's a short term gig anyway.

 

[jjetpilot]

Mesa has built the airline on that attitude. Just suck it up for a couple of years and get out. It used to work when the majors were actually HIRING, but today it is a whole new ballgame. With the industry stagnating (except for the LCC's), pilots are finding that they either have to make their career at the regional level or at the very least have to stay at a regional airline for 5years or more.

The majors have been losing money hand over fist before and after Sept 11th. They are giving mainline routes to the regionals to stay "competetative". This kind of screws everybody. The majors obviously with furloughs and paycuts to avoid bankruptcy if they aren't there already. It screws the regional pilot who hopes to fly for the majors someday.....there is no slot for them to grow into. This is where Mesa's latest contract comes in. For whatever reason the pilot group will tell you, they voted in a HORRIBLE contract. VERY low wages makes them more competative for the routes that majors are giving up. So the race to the bottom begins. At contract time regional mgt says "well to be competative we need to match Mesa's contract....blah...blah...".

So when you actually reverse all the hard earned wins in previous contracts are obliterated because of Mesa's current contract then you can see why people are bitter. There ya go....no flamebait....no attitude....just the truth...

Anybody else have anything more to add?

 

[Relic01]

I have done an actual research on pilot pay etc. at Mesa and comparable commuters, surprisingly Mesa pays far more than a lot of them yet I keep hearing about upholding the pay and ya di ya da. Come on, who do you work for MW44, Mesa pays better than most i.e. Trans State, Chatuaqua, Eagle, Expressjet, and the list goes on...people bashing Mesa need to gather their facts and stop preaching heresay. There are only a few companies
that pay better - Comair, Horizon, ASA, Air Whiskey.

This reminds me of when I started flying and I would hear all the major airline pilots complain about pay at Southwest. Now everyone wants to fly for Air Tran, JetBlue, America West and ATA...they all have similar pay structures to Southwest and after pay cuts and such most majors and nationals will be very similar in pay.

Now don't get me wrong, there are certain propositions that are just far out there from JO. Like Mesa pilots flying the 737 for what would be next to nothing. I do not think pilots at Mesa would stand for that. Secondly, Mesa has about 1800+ pilots. I think the scab list from Freedom air is less than 100. Generalizing on the scabs make all Mesa pilots look like crap and trust me, I have taken the time to meet a lot of awesome people there who take this profession seriously...so do you homework, then quote facts. There is not on pilot group out there that does not have some problems with management, it is the profession we chose.

 

[RideTheWind]

Put the words 'mesa' in the search function at the top of the page and you'll find the answers to your questions yourself.

Mesa pilots signed a contract that are killing the rest of us that are trying to support ourselves, read the contract and see for yourself, that contract is like no other regional contract.


Relic01 I have no idea what is in that pipe you're smokin, but it must be good.

 

[350DRIVER]

You will find most of the bashing that occurs on this board is coming from folks who had to BUY their jobs back in the day and that are just a tad bitta that they are stuck at regional X with 4000 to 6000 hours TT with no option to move on. Most are p!ssed because these Mesa folks are putting in the time and moving on to bigger and better equipment, can you blame them? It is easy to hide behind a screen name, most wouldn't dare have the balls to open their mouth in real life, they talk the big talk though.

Mesa is not a career carrier, bottom line. I always find it comical when the bashing occurs out of complete ignorance and stupidity.

121 time is 121 time...

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[aviatrix]

You will find most of the bashing that occurs on this board is coming from folks who had to BUY their jobs back in the day and that are just a tad bitta that they are stuck at regional X with 4000 to 6000 hours TT with no option to move on. Most are p!ssed because these Mesa folks are putting in the time and moving on to bigger and better equipment, can you blame them? It is easy to hide behind a screen name, most wouldn't dare have the balls to open their mouth in real life, they talk the big talk though.

Mesa is not a career carrier, bottom line. I always find it comical when the bashing occurs out of complete ignorance and stupidity.

121 time is 121 time...

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Agreed completely! They (the 4 XJet pilots on this board who choose to b%tch about Mesa) are completely clueless as to the realities at Mesa. I think they're just too bitter about having to sit as an FO for 5+ years! The reality is, Mesa is losing pilots due to attrition to the majors faster than they can keep pace with! Everytime one of you quotes about the "jobs at the majors not being there anymore" you can bet that another Mesa pilot just got hired by SWA, JetBlue, and FedEx!
So cry and b%tch all you want! It's your time after all! But maybe, just maybe that time would be wiser spent on your own issues!

 

[Thedude]

Last time I checked the MAJORs still have plenty of guys on the street .....how could they be hiring. Gee, I remeber back when Mesa used to charge to upgrade to captain. Now ask yourself ,would you pay to upgrade in a a/c that you are already flying.

 

[350DRIVER]

Yeah, Ben franklin, etc, crack me up. If I had to buy my job, put in many years, 4000+ hours and still stuck at XJET then I am sure I wouldn't be the happiest person in the world either. They are full of BS and the posts are as delusional as could be. It is pretty easy to see that many Mesa guys are moving on to the AWA, ATA, JetBlue, Airtran's of this industry. Mesa is a stepping stone and a very good one at that, not a career carrier.


They can post till they are blue in the face but most can see right through their bullsh!t.

what other regional pilots think about you, etc,

What a joke... You actually think Mesa pilots give a flying fuc& about what you and others think about them? Put the pipe down and come back to reality from your little fantasy world.

wake up

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[aviatrix]

Oh yes, and America West too. Many I know are getting snapped up by Cactus as well! I just cant believe how many people I know over at Mesa who are getting hired lately! They're losing some 30-40 a month!!! It's crazy! I guess when you're treated that poorly by management, it gives you motivation to get your app out there and try to get hired by someone else!!!

I crack up when people on this board say that Mesa pilots are going to be there forever!!! Not a chance!!! Upgrade's quick and then they move on! I dont work there, but it almost seems unbelievable how quick they move through there!

Oh, and uh, mckpickle, skootertrash, and Rottweiler........careful those Mesa pukes dont steal YOUR major job!

 

[LR25]

i have never had someone say to my face that we arent holding up the profession. i agree we may not be setting the bar at the level of a major, but it could also be a lot worse.

I have.

 

[Axel]

Suckers

What obvious flame bait that was and you all jumped right in. How passe. I propose to the Moderators that there be created a "Rabid Mesa Haters" forum so that this and the Interview board will be relieved of the same old tired clutter you all seem to revel in.

 

[MW44]

Hey guys I don't care what you work for over at Mesa. You can work for $2/hr and all the snack mix you can handle if it floats your boat. My post was mostly in jest as the original question almost seemed to be a joke since the topic has been beat to death for the last 3 years or so. I have long since come to terms with the new reality of airline professionals. The post asked what the anti-mesa sentiment was all about and I tried to throw a few of the major "talking points" out.

If anyone is to blame for the decline in wages it's probably the mainline MEC's that agreed to give away thousands of jobs by farming out all the rj's to the lowest bidder. Obvioulsy you can't fault a starving CFI for flying in the right seat of a 70 seat jet for 20k or so. But those at Coex, Comair, Asa, PDT/alg, Mesaba and other regionals that have had to negotiate a contract or discuss concessions after Mesa signed their contract have definitely been adversly affected by your work rules/pay rates. I was giving the poster an idea of what the angst is all about. But again I don't blame line pilots, I think we have a leadership vacuum at alpa national.

Most of you pro-mesa guys argue that the ends justify the means. Who cares what the contract says as long as the upgrade comes quick. Suck it up for a few years and you'll be at JBlue, AWA, SWA, etc while the rest of us chumps are still trying to keep our head above water in the regional industry. You're probably right. Good for you guys!! Hopefully Mesa doesn't run your LCC out of business fifteen years from now when you have things like a mortgage, kids in college, car payments, a good salary, etc.

 

[Sam Fisher]

Yeah, Ben franklin, etc, crack me up. If I had to buy my job, put in many years, 4000+ hours and still stuck at XJET then I am sure I wouldn't be the happiest person in the world either. They are full of BS and the posts are as delusional as could be. It is pretty easy to see that many Mesa guys are moving on to the AWA, ATA, JetBlue, Airtran's of this industry. Mesa is a stepping stone and a very good one at that, not a career carrier.

Those XJT 5 year FO's you speak of were hired in 2000. PFT was well over in 2000. If you don't think that Mesa's contract wasn't the original domino in the plethora of paltry 50 seat contracts that soon followed (CHQ, ARW, ACA, SKYW, Mesaba, etc), then you sir, are smoking crack. The main reason why my pilot group is not going to obtain the contract that we (and every other 50 seat carrier) deserve, is because there is someone (in this case Mesa and JO) willing to do it for less. Simple as that.

Did you go straight from King Airs to the Airbus at AWA? Or are you still flying King Airs? I can't tell from your profile.

Sam

 

[350DRIVER]

Sam,

I am pretty sure that the above mentioned people have a doh well before 2000, also pretty sure Ben and the others are currently captains and not first officers. I am well aware of when the PFT stopped (and aware they had a "choice"), back in the day when I went through the PDP there Dresser was still at the helm. I am pretty familiar with COEX. I wish ya'll the best of luck but don't expect management to be giving in anytime soon, last I heard was that both sides were way off from anything near an agreement.

If you don't think that Mesa's contract wasn't the original domino in the plethora of paltry 50 seat contracts that soon followed (CHQ, ARW, ACA, SKYW, Mesaba, etc), then you sir, are smoking crack.

Are you going to use the Mesa contract as an excuse IF you guys end up caving in and taking less than what you think you "deserve"? If you are going to use this as a copout then you must be smoking much more crack than I am. Mesa's contract has no bearing on you or anyone else for that matter, your pilot group will get what they negotiate, bottom line and reality, Mesa isn't setting any bar let lower or higher let alone helping or dragging your group down one way or another. It is a poor excuse and BS if you use Mesa as a factor in this equation. Mesa is not helping you one way or another but I would be willing to bet any amount of money that you will blame them once you get the contract if it is not along the lines of what you are looking for. Much easier to transfer the blame to others versus accepting it in situations like this as history has proven.


I am seated and awaiting a winning lotto ticket so I can get back to flying a CJ, only this time I can add owner to the operator title.


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[Relic01]

Well said 350 Driver...well said. I guess Mesa is to blame and they set the bar for all these pilot groups according to Sam Fisher
"If you don't think that Mesa's contract wasn't the original domino in the plethora of paltry 50 seat contracts that soon followed (CHQ, ARW, ACA, SKYW, Mesaba, etc), then you sir, are smoking crack.

Get real people, handle your business and stop looking for people to blame. If you deserve some industry topping salary, you will get it...if not, you won't. Best of luck.

MW44 - Who do you fly for and what equipment? I'll post your contract next to Mesa's and you be the judge.

 

[350DRIVER]

Get real people, handle your business and stop looking for people to blame. If you deserve some industry topping salary, you will get it...if not, you won't. Best of luck.

The sad thing is that they ( a select few on this board) will always look to place blame on everyone and any carrier but themselves no matter how successful they become, or unsuccessful for that matter. Mesa is an easy and bad "excuse" but the bottom line is that no person from Mesa is currently negotiating the new ExpressJet contract. We shall see how high this invisible bar will be raised when they get the huge Comair + 30% contract, in the meantime we can continue to listen to this BS about how Mesa lowered the invisible bar. God forbid they have to settle for industry standard pay that most all other regionals did post 9-11 .. I could hear it already, " Mesa fuc^ed us, blah, blah, blah, and that is why we didn't get what we deserve".

As I have stated time and time again, I surely wish the entire ExpressJet pilot group the best of both worlds and hope they get every dollar that they feel that they deserve but do not blame Mesa should you fail or come up short..... Mesa has no bearing on your current talks. You will only get what you negotiate for, no other way around it.. Shoot for the stars and we shall see if you make it or come up short.


good luck,

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[T-Gates]

BBQ...

For the love of god, do we need another anti-Mesa thread???

 

[Sam Fisher]

As I have stated time and time again, I surely wish the entire ExpressJet pilot group the best of both worlds and hope they get every dollar that they feel that they deserve but do not blame Mesa should you fail or come up short..... Mesa has no bearing on your current talks. You will only get what you negotiate for, no other way around it.. Shoot for the stars and we shall see if you make it or come up short.

Mesa has no bearing on our current talks? Are you kidding me? All we ever hear from our management is...

"We can only pay you X because we must remain competitive." Competitive means we must have rates near the rest of the 50 seat operators. Well guess who was the first to not hit the new bar? That's right - Mesa. Prior to them, you had ACA then Comair then Air Wisky then Horizon...each one topped the prior. Where was Mesa? Hmm....

...In the new world of outsourced small jet feed, everyone else's pay rates absolutely do matter in our negotiations.

Sam

 

[350DRIVER]

Sam,

If Mesa is being used by management as a tool to force you into a corner with no way out then why not also use Comair to counter these points and show that you are unwilling to accept anything less. It goes both ways, they (management) may use Mesa as an example and the pilot group should use Comair to counter it, seems easy enough huh? Obviously this is not the case due to all other regional contracts signed post-911. Chitaco, Mesaba, etc, pretty much all the same +/- a few peanuts which I am sure management will also be bringing into the picture as well....I wish you all the best of luck and I surely hope the ExpressJet pilot group can do one better than Comair but I also think you are in a long fight that doesn't seem to be coming to an end anytime soon. This is more than just a Mesa issue, look at Chitaco and Mesaba, obviously not contracts to praise and be proud of.

On the bright side, your pilot group seems very strong, united, and determined to fight this till the very end.

That's right - Mesa. Prior to them, you had ACA then Comair then Air Wisky then Horizon...each one topped the prior. Where was Mesa? Hmm....

It had everything to do with stopping Freedumb dead in it's tracks and securing a future for all involved. JO fuc&ed these guys in more ways than one so the group had to put an end to this, what other choice did they have?. I never praised the Mesa contract but I do feel that it has little to do with whether or not you are successful or not in your current talks, don't play into management's hands and the rest will fall into place. Your time is now to make a stand, for better or for worse.

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[bobbysamd]

Mesa

My Mesa experiences were during the bad old days of Larry Risley, though it's clear that Frank O. (intentional) is cut from the same bolt of cloth as Frankie Smooth Talk and his ancestor, E.L. Cord.

I've written heavily about my Mesa experiences on this board, so I will try to be brief. In 1991, I interviewed for an FO position with the airline. Part of my interview was conducted by Grady Reed, who was a vice-president of something or another at Mesa at that time. During this time, the CRJ and ERJ were being developed. I had read about them in professional pilot magazines. "Mister" Reed asked at the end if I had questions; I asked if Mesa had planned to acquire RJs. He said "no" and his annoyance with my question was palpable. I was not hired. I am convinced to this day and I will go to my grave convinced that my question, which I thought was completely reasonable because it showed knowledge of the industry and interest in the company, essentially torpedoed me. I learned an extremely valuable lesson from that experience; to always refuse the gambit when asked if you have questions at the end of an interview.

After I received my rejection letter, I immediately wrote a letter to the Chief Pilot petitioning for reconsideration. No response from him. People who have been with Mesa will know that this individual was one of the Freedom scabs, so his reaction to my letter should be no surprise. Of course, we all know the rest of the story; Mesa became a leading operator of ERJs and CRJs.

Two years later, after suffering a termination, I applied to Mesa Airlines Pilot Development as a flight instructor. The real deal for MAPD for instructors, of course, was being sent to 1900 initial training eventually. I disclosed my termination fully to the Chief Instructor and the Corporate Counsel, who was Larry Risley's brother, at the interview. They told me my termination would be no problem. I was hired. I was elated. I thought I'd finally get my regional airline opportunity. I thought Mesa was great.

When I reported to corporate to complete my paperwork, after uprooting myself and moving one thousand miles, I was asked for my employment history for the last five years. I had my paperwork, including the papers regarding my termination, and gave them to the H.R. She came back and said I might not be eligible for hire and not have a job after all, because Mesa did not hire previously-terminated pilots. All this after I had moved to Farmington in good faith that I had a job. She finally came back and said I had a job after all. The Chief Flight Instructor represented to me no knowledge of this policy at the time. Later, he said that I could never be hired as a line pilot for Mesa Airlines but could work for the school. As far as I was concerned, Mesa lied to me. Surely he must have known of this policy, and surely the Corporate Counsel (company attorney), who also interviewed me, knew of this policy.

I then thought that maybe the job, which was instructing ab initio airline students, similar to what I had been doing at FlightSafety, might be fun. It was not fun at all and I left after three months. During this time, I met the very same Chief Pilot to whom I petitioned for reconsideration after my 1991 rejection. He was a DE for Mesa's pay-for-interview ATP program. I did not discuss my letter to him, but it was extremely strange to meet this man.

Mesa Airlines is not on my short list of favorite companies. On the other hand, the MAPD program works, it is not P-F-T, and no one says you have to work there the rest of your left. Mesa Part 121 time is recognized everywhere. Get your time there and move on.

 

[bobbysamd]

Edit

On the other hand, the MAPD program works, it is not P-F-T, and no one says you have to work there the rest of your left . . . . .

This new board really challenges a person's proofreading skills. The sentence should read, "On the other hand, the MAPD program works, it is not P-F-T, and no one says you have to work there the rest of your life."

I would add a point. Mesa might have worked out for me as a place to hang my helmet and goggles. All the bad things considered about Mesa, and there are many of them, in time I could have had enough seniority to hold a Phoenix domicle, where I would have been happy to live or commuted to easily enough from Denver, I would have risen in seniority, and perhaps become an RJ captain. So, for those who wonder why I was so frustrated by my Mesa experiences, those are at least three good reasons.

 

[captdorn81]

So I have a question. If were to get a job right now with Mesa and ride it for a while, then leave and try to get a job with someone else, are my chances less because i was a previous Mesa employee? I ask this because I'm seriously thinking about going to Mesa. Also, Do any of you guys know if you do the PACE program, do any other Commuters like Delta connection look down on you or just recognize you as another applicant? Thanks, oh and I could it without the sarcasm, Im just asking.

 

[bobbysamd]

Mesa 121 time

If were to get a job right now with Mesa and ride it for a while, then leave and try to get a job with someone else, are my chances less because i was a previous Mesa employee? I ask this because I'm seriously thinking about going to Mesa. Also, Do any of you guys know if you do the PACE program, do any other Commuters like Delta connection look down on you or just recognize you as another applicant? Thanks, oh and I could it without the sarcasm, Im just asking.

Mesa Airlines is Part 121 time, the same as any other regional, and is recognized as such. It carries the same value as any other regional. Down the road, you could encounter people who just don't like Mesa Airlines and that could hurt your chances - just as if you were coming from ExpressJet, COEX, SkyWest, Horizon, etc. You can't do much about that. Your Mesa time should be fine and you shouldn't worry.

On the other hand, if it is discovered that you purchased your interview from Mesa PACE, you might encounter some people who did not like that you bought your interview. That could hurt your chances.

 

[AA717driver]

Sorry, guys, but working for regionals is for one thing and one thing only--building time. If you get stuck there, it is a matter of timing--rarely a choice.TC