What's with UAL Jumpseat???

[AA717driver]

TWA Dude--I'll bet you made your Capt's. miserable at TWA. TC

 

[JPB]

I was going to training in Denver once.
During this period, the UAL guys were "all sick" and my flight was about 1 hour late.
Going through Chicago, i knew that my connection, which happened to be the last of the day, was going to be tight.
My assigned seat was in the back of the 75. So i decided to ask the capt if i could use the jumpseat in order to expedite my exit.
I explaned to him that I had a ticket, that I was already checked in and my interest for the strategically positionned jump seat.
Even though I was wearing good Dockers and an ironed shirt, the captain looked at me and told me that I was not properly dressed.
I said "no problem sir" ( thank you for sharing part of you divine time with the low life form that appears before you).
Went back to my seat and missed my connection.
Two weeks later, call from my jump seat rep.: A complaint has been filed about a pilot (me) that was trying to use the jump seat and pocket the money of the ticket...Can you even do that?
To recap: I was denied the courtesy of the jumpseat even if my company paid full fair price, I was told that my clothes were not good enough, I got stuck in chicago, and to top it all off called a liar and a thief.
My rep. returned my version of the facts to his conterpart at UAL. Come to think of it, I never got an apology for that.

 

[Andy]

I'm a UAL furloughee, so I can't get ANY jumpseat right now. However, I'll go ahead and make a couple of stupid points.

First, UAL is fighting for their very existance right now. While many pilots would like to offer offline jumpseaters unlimited seats, where do you think it falls on the priority list?

Second, I worked for another company prior to UAL. I was able to jumpseat offline on many carriers. However, there weren't many offline jumpseaters on any of the flights that I flew. So my company's pilots benefitted from being able to jumpseat offline more than other companies' pilots benefitted from reciprocal jumpseat priveleges. After being hired by United, I almost exclusively jumpseated on UAL. However, we carried many offline jumpseaters on our flights.

It's easy to attack UAL's jumpseat policy because UAL flies to so many places and has so many flights. But the reciprocal agreements that UAL has with other carriers benefits the offline carriers' pilots (for the most part) more than it benefits UAL pilots. Even with unlimited jumpseating on other carriers vs UAL's jumpseat restriction (which is number of jumpseaters equals number of jumpseats; not neccessarily restricted to one).

Anyone suggesting that a Captain violate company policy to help out a fellow pilot is wrong. Any Captain violating company policy is putting his job in jeopardy. I've never flown with any UAL Captain who's allowed more jumpseaters than jumpseats.

 

[lazy8s]

Second, I worked for another company prior to UAL. I was able to jumpseat offline on many carriers. However, there weren't many offline jumpseaters on any of the flights that I flew. So my company's pilots benefitted from being able to jumpseat offline more than other companies' pilots benefitted from reciprocal jumpseat priveleges. After being hired by United, I almost exclusively jumpseated on UAL. However, we carried many offline jumpseaters on our flights.

The reason is 9/11. Prior to 9/11, I had no issue with trying ANY airline to get to work. Now you have to consider that there may not be 'open seats' to get on or the J/S is taken. I almost always ride on my own airline or one that I know takes multiple J/S and has seats available.

At my company, we allow multiple J/S on all of our flights except American Connection (yeah, I'm a regional driver). But, if 1, 3 or 15 of you can get past the agent on AMR Connect, you have a ride.

I'm always willing to help a commuter.

Lazy8s

 

[Andy]

The reason is 9/11. Prior to 9/11, I had no issue with trying ANY airline to get to work. Now you have to consider that there may not be 'open seats' to get on or the J/S is taken. I almost always ride on my own airline or one that I know takes multiple J/S and has seats available.

Lazy8s, with all due respect, you completely missed my point. The number of offline jumpseaters is irrelevent in terms of 9/11. What I was saying is that UAL, irrespective of 9/11, in sheer numbers, UAL gives more offline pilots the jumpseat than UAL pilots jumpseat on offline carriers.

 

[rptrain]

...in sheer numbers, UAL gives more offline pilots the jumpseat than UAL pilots jumpseat on offline carriers.

Sorry, but that's a lame point, even if it is true. For one thing, consider the math: UAL has ~8,000 pilots. How many pilots from other airlines do you suppose have jumpseat agreements with UAL? If I were a betting man I'd wager it's way more than 8,000. So, duh, more offline guys ride your airline than your guys ride on other airlines. That's true of any airline with a reasonable number of reciprocal agreements. If only we all knew how unfairly we're being taken advantage of!

Let's all limit it to one jumpseater, or better yet an average number of jumpseaters per flight so that the "reciprocity" works out fairly. Let's see, for starters we'll just assume that UAL has agreements with all 64,000 ALPA pilots. So, percentage-wise, UAL represents 0.125 of those pilots. Whenever a jumpseater checks in at the counter, the computers can check to see if he'll skew the average over the "fair" limit or not. Oh wait, then all the airlines will have to "track" who's jumpseating where and when, computer systems will have to be modified.... Let's just round the 0.125 down to 0. That's close enough.

 

[Andy]

rptrain, I guess the only solution would be to return to the 'old' way of jumpseating. No offliners. Period. It wouldn't hurt many UAL pilots. It would greatly effect offline pilots who rely on UAL/AMR/DAL for a ride.

Your little fun with math vis a vis pilot populations fails to address the fact that UAL operates far fewer flights percentage-wise than the total number of pilots covered under reciprocal agreements.

I've flown for another carrier, and I would estimate that out of 200 or so flights, I saw three offline jumpseaters. In that same time period, I jumpseated on other carriers at least fifty times. I would say that most of my fellow pilots at that company had similar jumpseating ratios. Which company's pilots benefitted from the reciprocal agreements? My old company's pilots did.

Do I wish to see jumpseating policies return to the days of old (no offliners)? No.

But this myopic view that all carriers should have unlimited jumpseaters fails to address the problems with implementation of such a policy. And for what it's worth, the reason why jumpseating was allowed in the first place was to have an additional pilot to assist in an emergency. How many jumpseaters are needed to assist in an emergency, especially now with the increased post-9/11 restrictions?

 

[rptrain]

Andy,

you're right, it probably can't be done.

Hey, has anyone heard of this airline called jetBlue? Supposedly they allow unlimited jumpseaters, and the agents just give everyone a seat assignment with little hassle. They'll even let you sit in an FA seat if everything else is full. I've heard they fly to lots of pilot-popular places to live like Florida, and word is that a whole bunch of pilots at my airline commute on them all the time. The weirdest thing is that they don't have a union and didn't have to negotiate for this.

Those guys must have an acute case of myopia.

Glad to hear that you really didn't need anyone else's jumpseat at UAL. BTW, were you IAD based? Cuz unless you live in Europe, there's a lot of places domestically where you just "can't get there from here" on mainline.

Thanks for exposing the flaws in my math though. It's probably better that we go on your own scientific observations gathered from flying the line.

 

[banned username 1]

When jumpseating was "normal" (pre 9-11) all offline jumpseaters were always welcome in the cockpit of mine. If a seat in the back was available, it was theirs if they wished- first class if possible. I've written tickets so that an offliner could ride, and even let an offliner go instead of me on a full plane because he'd waited thru 3 flights and it looked bleak for him. There are far more good stories out there than bad.

As for not being properly attired, there was a time when dockers and a sport shirt wouldn't have been "proper attire". Now it is. If you want to find a sore bunch, ask an Air Traffic Controller who has a beard how he enjoys UAL jumpseating and then stand back! Must be clean-shaven.

There was a period of a few weeks where the writers of the Flight Ops Manual wrote on jumpseat policy and it was easy to interpret that you could take more jumpseaters than you had jumpseats. It was a time of colossal confusion as it was written like the US Tax Code. It didn't take too much time before clarification to the rules came out and it was back to the old regulations and interpretations. Nice while it lasted.

Trust me, if it were up to 98% of the UAL pilots, we'd take as many jumpseaters as we could. Andy's right in that if we want to change the policy, we're going to pay for it dearly in some other way. Then there's the issue of what about offline flight attendants? What's fair is fair. Where do you stop? A slippery slope to be sure. I have heard that UAL is going to be the first carrier to implement the new offline pilots in the cockpit program- post 9-11. When that happens, we'll welcome you back into the cockpit when the cabin is full. In the meantime, there needs to be a seat for you in the back in order for you to "ride the jumpseat". It worked great for the nice guy from SWA that I carried from HNL to SFO this afternoon.

For those who will encounter the occasional jerk while jumpseating, I can only apoligize and remind you that the vast majority will welcome you with the respect that's due you.

UAL78

 

[TWA Dude]

TWA Dude--I'll bet you made your Capt's. miserable at TWA. TC

Only when they insisted on talking politics and religion in the cockpit.

Dude

 

[Buford129]

Imagine that, a United crew member acting like a Richard Cranium! Go figure1

 

[T-Bags]

Imagine that, a United crew member acting like a Richard Cranium! Go figure1

Considering the number of UAL crewmembers with your background, and were likely your squadron mates, it shouldn't surprise you at all. Just look in the mirror Richard.

 

[Dizel8]

It would be great, if we could all get unlimited j/s agrements, but sadly, those above us, in many cases, uses it as a contract tool, read concession in other areas. There are those airlines, who charges their own to nonrev travel.

The system is not perfect, but perhaps we can all endeavour to make it better. I j/s on UAL all the time, never have a problem with gate or crew, always feel welcome. Same goes for ATA, a truly great bunch of people. As a matter of fact, never did have any probelms jumpseating, other than the number of jumpseaters allowed or flights oversold (post9-11)

So, lets keep the snide remarks to a min. and just try, however we can, to make the system work better. If history is any guide,
the new system will be a pain in the rear in the beginning.

At the end of the day, I am happy to take as many, as there are seats. I know all they want to do is go to work or better yet, home.

And to all those who gave me a ride, Thanks, I sure appreciate it.

 

[rptrain]

just to be clear, i'm not knocking UAL guys at all. every time i've got a ride from them it has been fantastic. awesome crews, and they do their best running a great airline.

what bugs me is the mentality that, "well, even if we wanted to expand the OMC program, there's just too many hurdles to make it happen." shenanigans!!!

hanging on to the old "we can't" mentality will eventually sink you.

 

[banned username 1]

No Problemo

We'll get right on it as soon as we take care of one or two other items facing us right now ;-)

UAL78