What's the Deal?!!

[Herc130AV8R]

OK, I want to know why everybody seems to bag on SWA?? Why???? Is it because they seem to be weathering the storm better than everyone else?? I'm a Mil pilot and have only been on this forum for a few months but I have noticed one thing: It seems like there is a prevailing theme to want to bad mouth SWA. I don't get it. It's like the civilian version of the fighter guys bagging on airlifters and vice-versa. Was it like this before 9/11 when everyone was doing alright financially? Will someone please explain.

 

[Scrapdog]

I don't think many people "bag" on other folks unless it is instigated by some sort of snide comment towards a particular airline, or certain individuals that fly for a particular carrier come out and boast about earnings like they just became Trump's apprentice. And honestly, I don't think SWA gets criticized that often...actually most people give them kudos for doing so well in the niche they're in. I think JetBlue unfairly gets criticized the most, in my humble opinion.

And let's not go down the fighter vs. airlift road...that's just opening a can of worms my friend.

 

[FlyBoeingJets]

Everyone has an agenda. Some are here to spread misinformation or anger. Some are here to pass the time and spread/discuss what they know/think.

Sometimes, source of some good info. But always check what you hear, I've been given much bad poop.

 

[Bavarian Chef]

Dude, get over it. This board is a hatefest. And yes, jb gets more than its fair share. But so does "insert LCC" -- and I don't mean that hokey stock ticker of you-know-who. That's sarcasm, not hate btw.

 

[Bringupthebird]

Here's my take on it.

When Southwest started up, they were constrained by the established airlines as to where they could fly. After deregulation in 1978 they continued to grow but were one among many new low-fare airlines that sprung up. The airlines faced tough times in the early 80's primarily due to the cut-throat competition that these airlines brought. But as these airlines began to become victims of their own success some were bought up by majors and some just went away. But Southwest remained.

The majors grew bigger, but not necessarily stronger. Southwest became both. They grew with a combination of dramatically lower costs (read pay rates) and fares that were so low no established airline could compete. The airline business has been historically a thin margin one and to have to drop your prices to meet Southwest meant something would have to give. Namely major airline pay.

Adding to this was the aura of darling that Southwest enjoys in the press. Many pilots feel that the praise lauded in on Southwest is a backhanded attack on them for "crippling" their carriers with high labor costs for so long. They don't think that keeping the pay rates where they were was something worthy of punishment, but the so-called managers of their airlines apparently did.

So many pilots connect the dots of their misfortune and many lines cross at Southwest. Now the "managers" (as opposed to leaders) have become emboldened to take even greater steps to lower the prevailing wage and capitalize on pilots anxiety. Any time a pilot takes a job that pays less for essentially the same work (Air Tran, JetBlue, America West, etc.) they earn the distain from pilots who attempted to keep the gains they had fought hard for so many years.

 

[Bavarian Chef]

Any time a pilot takes a job that pays less for essentially the same work (Air Tran, JetBlue, America West, etc.) they earn the distain from pilots who attempted to keep the gains they had fought hard for so many years.

And that disdain is rational?

I mean when I go home and all after a HARD DAY of being an airline pilot -- how can I look into the eyes of my kids knowing that I am a wage whore and that I am responsible for Delta losing a bazillion dollars in 1 year (for example)?

Sorry, General. Just an example.

 

[scoreboard]

Here it comes again...

OK, I just ordered the Pizza, and have beer in hand, ready set, GO!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[scoreboard]

Your so wrong.

Any time a pilot takes a job that pays less for essentially the same work (Air Tran, JetBlue, America West, etc.) they earn the distain from pilots who attempted to keep the gains they had fought hard for so many years.

First, SWA IS the leading payscale for 737, no gloat just fact.

Second, The legacies lost the fight by flooding markets with seats that wouldn't pay the bills, to the point of being irrational. Not picking on anyone but i believe it was Delta who went after a new entrant in ATL with a ratio of 10 to 1 seats, at the price the new player was offering, they left, but Delta lost money doing it, more so than if the new player stayed. SWA and other LCC's are typically single digit % players in most markets. The problem is the legacies feel a threat and react irrationally, not the other way around.

Please don't make it seem like I'm taking anyones job, nor paycheck, thats irrational.

 

[Sporto]

Two Words

Two words. Fuel Hedges. Southwest has them, everyone else is paying top nut. That could cause some animosity.

It's the difference in making money on $69 one way fares and taking it up the shorts when that fare is matched. In a couple of years when the hedges are gone it will even the playing field somewhat.

Disclaimer: Not bashing SWA in any way, shape, or form. The guy who hedged is a genius.

 

[YourPilotFriend]

Most high paid pilots took a paycut of 40-100% to match the CASM of SWA. The legacy model can't match the cost structure of the LCC's unless it takes it out on labor. I suppose it's now jealousy that is mainly to blame for all the hate. SWA pilots are the highest paid in the industry; a first year 737 captain at SWA makes more than a senior 747 captain at some other airlines.

There is a problem coming down the line for SWA though, fuel. The legacy's have cut their current operational costs on the backs of labor to that of SWA plus its fuel hedges. When SWA fuel hedges relax, it will have to do three things to remain the #1 cost structure:
1.) Maintain growth to lower unit cost and maintain market share. (I expect SWA to get very territorial soon)
2.) Raise fares to compensate for increasing fuel costs. (This is the one that is important since once SWA fuel hedges relax the will have to charge a higher price, I expect the legacy's to match, however, the legacy's will have a lower cost structure.
3.) If the legacy's don't price match, expect the blunt of the cost cutting to go to labor.
Many may disagree with those options, but does someone have a better explanation?

 

[Uppercrust]

Airtan gets a fair share of the rips only because a few of their pilots post some of the dumbest arrogant stuff. We all know who they are. Frankly, I think they are part of a ring of peeter puffers out there in Hotlanta.

 

[Flopgut]

Main reason I started busting on SWA: Tough love [LUV]. SWA is a great airline because they run it like a flying business, have good employees and have had good pilots (fly/taxi/etc. in a manner that fosters advantage). Over the years, they cut the gig everyday and made it look simple. Too many SWA folks are showing a changed attitude, mostly junior ones, and they will screw it up. My SWA pilot neighbor is abominable! I don't mind being less than well regarded by SWA pilots if it helps them avoid pitfalls. This is the airline business, anything can happen to anybody.

SWA is good, but are they THAT good? Or is what has happened in the last five years to the legacy model THAT bad? Where is/was the tipping point? What/where is the next one?

Business wise, legacies have been managed terribly! Many legacy mgts recently SOLD fuel hedges! And that is just 1 mistake in thousands the last decade. Big picture: 50 seat RJs killed legacies. SWA beats a 50 seater on any route anyday of the week. You can't get a premium ticket price out of the customer on an RJ where SWA is also an option, and you can't keep one either. But you absolutely have to get a premium because the 50 seater costs more to operate than SWA. Management saw the scope clauses at 50, new they could cut a FA job at 50, and could buy cheaper, non-US built airplanes at 50, so that is where they [wrongly] percieved opportunity. Legacy mgts should have partnered with labor early on a long term plan to slug it out with LCCs and keep the bigger planes.

 

[Bringupthebird]

When SW's fuel hedges run out it will be a very foreign environment for them. During and shortly after deregulation, passengers had beeen conditioned as to what to expect to pay for an airline ticket. The no-frills carriers came in and re-conditioned them to expect to pay a fraction of that because they could operate at a fraction of the established airline's cost. Now, for the first time, the full-service and the LCC's are as close as they have ever been in terms of cost. SW will become just another airline unless they have some hidden fat they can cut and stay ahead.

 

[CaptainMark]

i though it was all those cocky SWA/FO posts that caused the backlash..and who cares anyway...?

 

[Bringupthebird]

To answer Herc's original question:

Imagine a real estate agent who went around selling houses for 1% commission. Imagine how the other realtors would welcome him.

 

[LakeTahoeFlyer]

SW should start assigning seats. I really don't know anyone who likes to stand in line to get on a plane. If another airline offers the same fare/schedule, why would anyone fly SW? They should also quit saying they can't make money at airports like DFW, and then announce a move to IAD (and PHL, DEN LAX etc).

 

[capt. megadeth]

SW should start assigning seats. I really don't know anyone who likes to stand in line to get on a plane.

No way! That's the only way you get the idiots to show up at the gate at a time other than departure time. If you want a decent seat, you need to be there early.

 

[Bringupthebird]

No way! That's the only way you get the idiots to show up at the gate at a time other than departure time. If you want a decent seat, you need to be there early.

When the door closes, you're either on or you're not. That's a pretty good incentive.

 

[FlyBoeingJets]

When the door closes, you're either on or you're not. That's a pretty good incentive.

You don't seem to understand. MegaDeath gets it.


If you want to do a 20 min turn, you have to have most passengers ready and waiting when the enplanning starts. If everyone shows up 10 minutes before push because they have an assigned seat, its no longer 10 minutes to push. Now its 20+ minutes.

 

[My Man SMITH!]

OK, I want to know why everybody seems to bag on SWA??

Bag on SWA??? I think there is much more bashing of jetBlue on this board then any other airline. I admire SWA and their ability to stay profitable during these challenging times. Who knows what it will be like 5 years from now. I just don't understand why everyone continuously bashes jetBlue. I think they have an outstanding product and that will lead to their longterm success. Just my opinion of course.

 

[ivauir]

. SW will become just another airline unless they have some hidden fat they can cut and stay ahead.

Really? What are our costs out side of fuel? How do they compare to other carriers? Fuel hedges aren't our only advantage. As other carriers lower their costs, we lower as well and most of the competition is orders of magnitude away.

BTW we don't do this by screwing our people so the real estate analogy falls short. We are not the cause of this industries problems.

 

[Flopgut]

You've got 6 unions, right? Most highly unionized airline. Hedges are good, but you can't pass on the cost of fuel any better than your competition. And you don't have a product that customers will pay a premium for, so you ain't going to go too far up on price. Keeping SWA profitable may not be the (nearly) no brainer it has been in the past. It does not help that humble restraint has sqwaked 1200 on about half the pilots.

 

[ivauir]

You've got 6 unions, right? Most highly unionized airline. True Hedges are good, but you can't pass on the cost of fuel any better than your competition. And you don't have a product that customers will pay a premium for, so you ain't going to go too far up on price. Keeping SWA profitable may not be the (nearly) no brainer it has been in the past. It does not help that humble restraint has sqwaked 1200 on about half the pilots. Interesting statitic - did you come up with that from reading on flight info?[/quote]

And yet our Break Even Load Factor remains low ... our pilots are well paid but our pilot costs to the company remain low - how is it possible? It isn't fuel hedges. And being unionized doesn't mean a bad working realationship with the company.

We are going to stuggle because that is what business is, a struggle. But I thought we were talking about why all the bad blood towards SWA. I think the answer is that we are an easy targets for other ailines' failures.

 

[Flopgut]

You've got 6 unions, right? Most highly unionized airline. True Hedges are good, but you can't pass on the cost of fuel any better than your competition. And you don't have a product that customers will pay a premium for, so you ain't going to go too far up on price. Keeping SWA profitable may not be the (nearly) no brainer it has been in the past. It does not help that humble restraint has sqwaked 1200 on about half the pilots. Interesting statitic - did you come up with that from reading on flight info?[/quote]

And yet our Break Even Load Factor remains low ... our pilots are well paid but our pilot costs to the company remain low - how is it possible? It isn't fuel hedges. And being unionized doesn't mean a bad working realationship with the company.

We are going to stuggle because that is what business is, a struggle. But I thought we were talking about why all the bad blood towards SWA. I think the answer is that we are an easy targets for other ailines' failures.

Here is the union deal: Your other work groups are going to want some more money. Your FAs have already been a little militant. Everyone there has seen coworkers get suckered into the buyouts and giveup. They know you pilots make huge dollars within 5 years. Thats going to get old, especially with some of the behavior the junior SWA pilots have taken to. (my neighobor wanted to taxi the SWA 737 around UAL's DEN terminal 3 times on your first day back, he is almost distraught that I can still afford my house and truck, loves that my pension is frozen)

You're right, this thread is about something else. I'll admit that I do miss the airline career that we all could have had if it weren't for de-regulation. And we can't separate your airline's success from de-regulation. Look at cargo. Two huge, mega profitable, US companies that control the world market. We didn't de-regulate cargo (well, it was never similiarly regulated like passenger) or subject cargo to the equivilent of being de-regulated. Nope, we let them run and conquer the free world market. Alfred Kahn didn't meddle in cargo and decide everyone needed to be able to access ultra cheap package delivery. I know its working out good for you, and I can live with it if that is always the case. (I can deal with my neighbor too. Literally, he has no friends, I can't imagine too many at SWA like this guy) But think about where we would all be if the US had two or three mega carriers with 25k pilots a piece, bases all over the world, hundreds of widebodies and ......enormous, fully funded pensions. Would have been cool.

 

[Bringupthebird]

BTW we don't do this by screwing our people so the real estate analogy falls short. We are not the cause of this industries problems.

You missed the point of the analogy. By charging "1%" when the prevailing rate is "6%" SW has decided to undercut it's competitors to what they may find has become an unsustainable level. SW isn't the cause of the industries problems. Maybe not, but their "cure" has been fatal to alot of pilot's careers.

 

[Bringupthebird]

Really? What are our costs out side of fuel? How do they compare to other carriers? Fuel hedges aren't our only advantage. As other carriers lower their costs, we lower as well and most of the competition is orders of magnitude away.

Orders of magnitude? How about pennies! If SW had paid what other airlines pay for fuel, they would have lost 73 million. Where do you suppose the quickest source of 73 million bucks is?

 

[FlyBoeingJets]

Orders of magnitude? How about pennies! If SW had paid what other airlines pay for fuel, they would have lost 73 million. Where do you suppose the quickest source of 73 million bucks is?

I don't disagree with all you are stating. But the hedging gain was after taxes and profit sharing. You also have to factor in the cost of the hedge. It was break even before hedging.

But I get your point. No hedge, no huge advantage.

 

[Flopgut]

Two more reasons I bag on SWA:

Low fares. Who needs low fares? The "low fares" battlecry is so 1990. The average fare in this country should be a $1,000.00, minimum. If they don't have the money, don't come to the airport.

The pilot group overwhelmingly supports retirement age change. There is a SWA Captain that posts all the time on here about it. He doesn't think he has made enough money and needs to work longer. A huge number of pilots his age have seen an airline fizzle and have already gone to plan B. It is easier to understand their need to work. Funny thing though, you hear less from them about the dire need for retirement age change. Listen to enough SWA guys and you would think they had nothing. I have zero regard for a SWA pilot, who has had a full SWA career, bawling for more years as Captain! Shoot, half the pilots his age who have lost airline careers can attribute that loss in some way to the market change that started with SWA. Now, after all these years and after so many lost so much, this guy decides his isn't enough? At nearly the exact moment everyone loses a pension this guy has a revelation: "Gee, I don't think I can retire, I don't have a pension, or something like that, or enough money!?". BS! It was adequate remuneration for you to go about dismantling a system that gave most other pilots a pension! Your coming up on section 6, get the money you need and retire when your supposed to.

 

[ivauir]

The pilot group overwhelmingly supports retirement age change. There is a SWA Captain that posts all the time on here about it.

The pilot group is not as solidly behind this as some would have you believe. It is an issue wich divides our pilot group pretty close to 50/50. And it has been a long time since there has been a survey.

In the end it seems a lot of folks upset because our company is sucessful. I won't apologize. I am sorry your neighbour is such a jerk. I could tell you about jerks I know at other carriers, but I think that sort of discussion is pointless. The vast majority of pilots I know at SWA (and I daresay my sample size is considerably larger than yours) don't harbor any ill will towards folks who fly for the competition. I think many of you have been robbed. But SWA didn't take your pensions and we didn't cut your pay.

Blaming us might make you feel better and wishing for us to fail might be carthitic. But it is an unproductive mindset that is not supported by the facts and will do nothing to improve your own standing.

 

[ivauir]

Orders of magnitude? How about pennies! If SW had paid what other airlines pay for fuel, they would have lost 73 million. Where do you suppose the quickest source of 73 million bucks is? raising fares

What is our CASM? What about our CASM excluding fuel? Hedging has been a huge advantage, but it isn't our only advantage.

Yup, orders of magnitude. I know you wish we'd fail, and someday we probably will, but it is farther off than you think.