whats the controversy?? - Pilot Fatigue

[Tug Driver]

I decided to do my research paper on pilot fatigue, but I am not seeing the controversial side of this topic. Perhaps its because I dont fly 121/135. The regs say that you can only fly 8 hrs but be on duty up to 14 hrs. Then you have to have 8 hrs of rest in between, right? Are the airlines more or less strict than the FAA?

Could someone please help me understand why this provokes so much controversy?

Thanks

 

[PacoPollo]

The CORPEX crash last month is a good example of pilot fatigue.Do a search of it.

 

[bobbysamd]

Stand-up o'nites

I decided to do my research paper on pilot fatigue, but I am not seeing the controversial side of this topic. Perhaps its because I dont fly 121/135. The regs say that you can only fly 8 hrs but be on duty up to 14 hrs. Then you have to have 8 hrs of rest in between, right?

Not necessarily. There are such things as "stand-up overnights," in which, e.g., you might come in at 5 p.m., be done flying at eight or nine, and have to be back at 5 or 6:00 a.m. It may be eight hours of rest, but, not really, once you eat and get to the hotel, etc., and get up the next morning.

I have worked similar schedules and, trust me, you don't get much rest and it's not a hell of a lot of fun.

 

[avbug]

Tugdriver,

The duty and rest schedules adhered to by airlines, fractional operators, commuters, and charter operations are prescribed by the FAA, not by the individual companies. Were it up to the companies, the crews would work all the time and get very little rest.

Duty time entails the time a pilot is responsible to act for the company; the time during which the pilot is available to perform a service for the company. This may be standing by, actively flying, preflighting, postflighting, or doing other duties as assigned.

Rest time is that time that the pilot has no responsibility to respond to work for the company.

Flight time limitations are less than duty time limitations, because part of flying is doing the non-flying duties. Obtaining briefings, preparing aircraft, filing flight plans, postflighting, etc, are all part of a days flying.

Fatigue is not just being physically tired. Some types of flying can be especially taxing mentally, resulting in a very tired pilot for very little physical effort expended. A hand flown instrument approach to minimums in bad weather can be very demanding mentally, even though little physical effort has been expended. Dealing with an emergency or other tasks on board can have the same effect.

External factors such as a divorce or other life changing events can also have deleterious effects on alertness, and mental rest. Emotional rest, something very often overlooked, is necessary, and the effects of the lack thereof, cumulative.

That a pilot has a few hours off between duty days isn't necessarily an indication that the pilot is rested. Present duty limitations do not take into account the pilot's state of mind, or other needs. These concerns should be addressed in order to properly tackle pilot fatigue.

 

[apdsm]

The problem is the FAA definition of rest. Let's say one has 8 hours of rest. That starts 30 minutes after blocking into the gate and ends 30 minutes prior to push time. Now take out travel time to and from the hotel, checking in and out of the room, eating, ironing shirt, showering, etc. You can easily see that there is nowhere near the 8 hours of rest implied by the definition!

 

[FN FAL]

I decided to do my research paper on pilot fatigue, but I am not seeing the controversial side of this topic. Perhaps its because I dont fly 121/135. The regs say that you can only fly 8 hrs but be on duty up to 14 hrs. Then you have to have 8 hrs of rest in between, right? Are the airlines more or less strict than the FAA?

Could someone please help me understand why this provokes so much controversy?

Thanks

Try 15:59 minutes on my job...and I only fly 4.0 on most days.

I love my job, but if you can get up at 3:40 AM and come home at 9:45 PM, every other day and still maintain some sort of a sleep schedule...more power to you.

It's not as simple as 14 and 8. It's hurry up and wait, stand in the cold with your blizzard attire on, then it's taxi and take off on a blizzard runway, then it's escape the ice for an hour or two, land on the blizard runway, get the plane in the hanger, go to the hotel and get 3 hour nap, hurry up and wait, fly off the blizard runway, escape the ice, shoot another ILS to a blizzard runway, hurry up and wait...wait somemore, taxi out and take off on the blizzard runway, fly to your destination go missed, hold, go back and do it again, land on the blizzard runway, drive home with a bunch of mall rats and soccer moms cluttering the blizzard highway, then get home and go..."SLEEEP MUTHFARGER SLEEEP!" Do it...I dare ya.

Yea, it's not a blizzard every day. Some days it's holding and fog and thunderstorms and ice and missed approaches. Some days it's mighty nice, but when you get in a cycle where the only time you can get to bed is 12:00 midnight, then you got two kind of days with my schedule...days where you wonder if the 3 hours sleep you might get at the hotel is going to combine with that crappy 3 hours of sleep you got the night before to add up to feeling good...or days where you sleep in till 9:00 am and wonder where your day went, why you feel like a crab and don't want to do anything.

I do commute, so I could shorten my drive by becoming closer to the airport...so yes, that is my choice...but my duty day can go to the 16th hour every day I fly, because I am unscheduled the next day. And still, I am tired.

I'm trying to make adjustments to my lifestyle to help me get to bed earlier, but it isn't easy.

 

[Resume Writer]

In addition to what everyone is saying, there are also the time zone changes that effect flight crew members. I never flew early morning departures, because I only worked the 757 for about 9 years. Here is why. Try getting up in JFK for a 7:30 am departure, which really means getting up at about 4:30 am JFK time (was 1:30 am PHX time), out of the hotel door by 5:30 for the hour van ride from Manhattan, because you had to be at the plane one hour prior to departure. That really cuts into the sleep time, in addition to trying to go to sleep at 8 pm in JFK the night before, which was 5 pm in PHX.

Then, of course, there are the flip flops. Try flying a nite flight to the east coast, getting in at 7 am, having 24 hours in that city and then getting up to take out the 7 am flight. While it may seem like a "dream" to have a 24 hour layover, you end up sleeping twice in one day so you will be rested enough to deal with the 12 hour day ahead of you.

Just my observations as a crew member for many years...

Kathy

 

[fou]

rest/duty

Not sure if it works this way everywhere but some places have their reserve pilots sit all day and then they are given a trip at the last moment. The reserve period neither counts as a rest period nor duty time. The reserve period till the release time cannot exceed 16 hours. That is quit a long day. Reserve people get abused.

 

[C425Driver]

FOU,

Actually, all time sitting on reserve is considered duty. This was a ruling by the FAA several years ago. Prior to that ruling, reserve time was not considered duty. In today's rules, all time that a pilot is available to the company is considered duty regardless of whether that pilot was called in to fly or not.



C425Driver

 

[SuperFLUF]

The 14 hours of duty can be extended to 16 max.

If you wake up, shower, eat, dress and go straight to the airport then it only adds from 1.5 to 3 hours to the front of your day. If your duty period starts later in the day and you wake up at a normal time then add even more hours to your duty day when considering fatigue related performance. Do a search for the Australian fatigue study that shows that after 17 hours awake you are in the same condition as somone with a .05 blood alcohol content. AND that's based on normal activities, not the usual high stress environment that comes with extended flight duty days (usually related to bad weather).

So then after 17 to 19 hours or more awake you make your final approach and landing in whatever horrendous weather that has delayed you (with your equivilent to intoxicated performance level) and you are expected to be in bed asleep getting your eight hours rest 15 minutes after the airplane has blocked in at the gate. NOT EVEN CLOSE.

After the 15-20 minutes it takes to get everyone off the airplane you gather the crew and walk to wherever it is on the airport the TSA has so graciously allowed the hotel vans to congregate and hope your van is there. Sometimes you wait up to 30 minutes for it to arrive. Then its a 15-40 minute ride to the hotel, 10 minutes to check in and get to your room. 45 minutes to shower and unwind and you look at your clock: only 6 hours until you have to be back at the airplane on duty. That's 5.5 hours until your van time which means you have to wake up 4.5 to 5 hours from now. Plenty of rest after a 14-16 hour duty day. Maybe if you are scheduled to fly a lot tomorrow you might get an extra hour of rest. 6 hours of sleep at the most, and that's if you skip breakfast (or your late night snack from the vending machine if there was no time for dinner or scraps left over on the flight).

So you can see that while 14 hours of duty and 8 hours min rest may look good on paper, 12 hours max duty and 10 or 11 hours of rest are more realistic minimums when saftey is taken into account. However, the airlines execs won't get the big bonus if the crew costs are too high so they spin the roulette wheel and play the odds.

 

[fou]

C425Driver,

I am a crewscheduler at an unnamed company and the duty/rest issue I mentioned still happens everyday. Ex. Reserve period is from 0715-1915 (During the reserve time the pilot must be available for duty).At 1600 a pilot is given a trip and the release time for that trip is 2245. From the start of the reserve period to the release time is 15hr30min. That trip is still legal. The total time from the start of reserve to release cannot exceed 16hr. The reserve time counts but it doesn't count. That is how we do things... not saying I necessarily agree but that is how things are done. The reserve time is not rest time nor duty time. Kinda weird.

 

[nosewheel]

Tug Driver

I'll throw one in the pot. How bout 121 supplimental. I live on the west coast. I start by commuting to Panc the first day then after min rest operate to Ord-Jfk. Off to the hotel for min rest (8hrs) which we all know is 5 hrs if your lucky then operate to Amsterdam. Now I get 16 hours off in a time zone thats 10 hrs ahead of my home zone. The next trip that goes during the evening is to Bahrain with a 3 hr turn on the ground then on to Kuwait. Its now 0400 and after a 2 to 3 hour turn the company wants us to PART 91 FERRY to Hong Kong! Depending on the routing it will take 8-10-12 hrs. After min rest in Hong Kong the next trip will be to Panc (with a fuel stop in Russia) then to the hotel. I can do this 2-3 more times during my 17 days on duty. Now count the time zones and the direction of flight and the realistic hours of rest (and not the FAA's definition of rest), catered meals, no exercise, high altitude flying, then make your determination why fatigue provoke's so much controversy.

 

[JediNein]

Let's get into everyone's favorite, Off-sked ops...

Now what does that do to max time on duty and so on?

An airline I knew well got to throw duty times out the window as long as there were 8 hours block to block before their next flights. They also had an accident killing 7 plus the management captain (a friend), which was partially blamed on duty times. I don't know what the final fallout was from the accident in terms of duty times only what it did to their CRM program.

Comments?

Fly SAFE!
Jedi Nein

 

[Mel Sharples]

Perhaps its because I dont fly 121/135. The regs say that you can only fly 8 hrs but be on duty up to 14 hrs. Then you have to have 8 hrs of rest in between, right? Are the airlines more or less strict than the FAA?

Could someone please help me understand why this provokes so much controversy?

The problem is that you are like 99% of the population who thinks this isn't a bad deal. I don't mean that personally. This sounds great on paper but in practice this can be a bear.

Imagine this: You start your day at 0500. You fly 8 legs shooting 8 instrument approaches to minimums. In between, you deal with delays, gate changes, maintenance, disgruntled passengers, weather, etc. You are lucky if you have time to go to the bathroom, let alone time to eat.

Now when the day is done at 1900 your "rest" starts. During this period, you take a shuttle to the hotel (if it's on time) which can be up to 30 minutes in good weather, check in, change, go eat, go to bed because you have to be at the airport again at 0500. But wait... during this "rest" time, you also need to shower, get ready, eat breakfast (if you can), pack, take the shuttle back to the airport, etc.

So an 8-9 hour "rest" period may equal only 4-5 hours of sleep easily. And that's if the hotel isn't noisy from other people, the room temperature is adequate, and the bed is somewhat comfortable.

Also keep in mind that working a 15-hour day as a pilot requires a lot more focus and concetration than a 15-hour day in a cube hacking on a computer. I don't pretend that we have the toughest job, or that others don't work hard. But if you make a mistake as a pilot, the consequences are usually much higher than those for the average worker. Flying in bad weather takes a lot out of you no matter what plane you fly.

Now you might read this and think that I am a whiner. I am not, but I want the public to know that just because you have a 9-hour rest period, it does NOT mean you will necessarily be well rested.

The golden rule: REST DOES NOT EQUAL SLEEP.

I often wonder if the people that make these laws had to work 15 hour day after 15 hour day with 9 hours off in between, if we would have so much trouble getting the laws changed.

So for your paper, just put down that things that sound good on the surface don't always work out that way in the end.

 

[atrdriver]

I have often said that if the passengers had any idea how tired the crews sometimes are they probably wouldn't feel quite so comfortable sitting back there sipping their cokes. Even with 10 or 12 hours rest between 14 hour duty days you don't get enough actual rest to complete the second day without being wrung out.

 

[Luap Sel]

I was thinking the exact same thing. I have often said that if the passengers had any idea how tired the crews sometimes are they probably wouldn't feel quite so comfortable sitting back there sipping their cokes. Even with 10 or 12 hours rest between 14 hour duty days you don't get enough actual rest to complete the second day without being wrung out.

I agree with you 100%.

Luap Sel.

 

[stuart716]

plus at airlines like the one i work for they will schedule for reduced rest and then the next day have you fly 7 legs with a long duty day.

 

[Tug Driver]

Thanks everyone for your comments. Now that I have been schooled in the controversy...

What do you think should be done to resolve the controversy? Would you just like more days off? Or shorter work days? Maybe 12 hours of rest?

How can we make this happen?

 

[nosewheel]

First you have to educate the FAA then our Employers who incidently dont give a Rats As$ about there pilots!!!!

 

[Mel Sharples]

Thanks everyone for your comments. Now that I have been schooled in the controversy...

What do you think should be done to resolve the controversy? Would you just like more days off? Or shorter work days? Maybe 12 hours of rest?

How can we make this happen?

1. Make rest start at the hotel, not the airport thus not including shuttle rides in rest.
2. Make rest times more realistic (i.e. no 9 hour nights... 11 or more)
3. Make scheduled reduced rest illegal
4. Make a maximum duty period following any reduced rest overnight
5. Eliminate Continuous Duty Overnights (highspeeds, stand-ups, etc.)
6. If you can't eliminate CDO's, don't allow them to be mixed in with trips during regular hours
7. Don't allow "mixed" schedules (i.e. work days for a week, then nights, then days again, etc.)
8. Have the FAA hold airlines accountable for schedules that are abusive
9. Make it easier for crew members to call in fatigued without retribution from the company (especially for you poor single-pilot freight dogs)


These are just off the top of my head. Anyone else have comments or more items to add???

 

[JediNein]

Make rotating split shifts history...

Of course that'd mean the FAA would have to stop that BS with their own ATC guys.

Fly SAFE!
Jedi Nein

 

[avbug]

Edited out...I spoke too soon. (Apparently I need reading lessons, too...)

 

[skeezer]

Avbug,

I fail to see how that scenario is not legal. the pilot would have been on rest from at least 2315 the night before. Since from the start of duty day (0715) to the end of duty day (2245) there is no more that 16 hours of duty, and the pilot would have had at least 8 hours of look-back rest then it is legal.

Skeezer

 

[Mel Sharples]

No, that is not legal. It may be done, and companies may be getting away with it as they have for years, but it is not legal. Prior to accepting an assignment, a pilot is required to have had 8-10 hours rest within the preceeding 24 hours, (time-specific depending on the regulation under which one is operating). If one has an obligation to duty, it is not rest. Without the required rest, one cannot accept the assignment, and the company cannot make the assignment, without violating the regulation. The scenario as you have provided it still goes on, but is not legal.

In such cases, in the event of enforcement action, the company may be violated, as may the pilot, and if a dispatcher is involved, so may the dispatcher.

Unless I'm missing something, it IS legal.

You get your rest before you start reserve, not the actual duty period. As long as you have the minimum rest in a 24-hour period, you are still legal. Not great but legal.

Again, I may be missing something but if you are saying that you can't be on reserve plus flying for 16 hours, then that is wrong. You couldn't go beyond 16 hours or you won't get the minimum rest, but up to that is totally legal.

 

[avbug]

You didn't miss anything. I misread, and then misspoke. My mistake. You are correct. Prior post has beed edited to reflect mental vapor lock.

 

[Mel Sharples]

You didn't miss anything. I misread, and then misspoke. My mistake. You are correct. Prior post has beed edited to reflect mental vapor lock.

Thanks for the clarification.

Like I said, I wasn't sure if I was misreading either. Perhaps we could all use some more rest???

 

[avbug]

It's not always for lack of sleep...I just wake up tired...

 

[FN FAL]

You didn't miss anything. I misread, and then misspoke. My mistake. You are correct. Prior post has beed edited to reflect mental vapor lock.

I never delete anything unless a moderator asks me to (the fact that a moderator is asking, is usually good enough for me .... ) .

There's no harm, no foul, in leaving it up...just preservation of the continuity of the conversation. Only the biggest jerk would attack a guy that had a viewpoint, got some enlightenment, then restated a second position that came as a result of a positive transfer of knowledge.

There have been times in the past where I woke one morning with a hangover and had to go back and read what I posted...but I think I left it up. I figger...big enough to say it, big enough to eat it. No regrets.

 

[avbug]

Others already copied it in their replies; the information is there to read. I only corrected, and edited my own commentary.

 

[FN FAL]

Rodger that, I only edit to change grammer or spelling. Maybe I'll do it to get a paragraph to read mo betta. I wasn't getting on your case, or screwing with ya...usually the "quoters" beat ya to it anyway. Have a good week and safe holiday.