What's going on at ATI?

[Whistlin' Dan]

If it's true, and ATI aircraft begin to replace AStar or ABX lift, ATI's reliability will probably be better, cause DHL will reap the friggin whirlwind in Building 11 for that stunt.

...which will give DHL what they really want...an excuse to dump Astar altogether. They'll pay off Dasburg and his investors for the 5 years remaining on his contract. Remember, DHL's contract is with him, not with you. It would probably be cheaper to offer Astar an early release from that contract and to clone a new airline, than to pay UPS/FedEx rates to Astar pilots for the next 5 years.

Of course, Dasburg and his investors will benefit from that, while the pilot list shrinks to only that necessary to service what little military and ad-hoc charter work Astar currently does. It's probably not enough to warrant keeping Astar's certificate active.

As far as facilities - if the above takes place, Astar will neither need, nor be able to afford, the facilities they're currently occupying. Who might be in the market to buy them? ATI, of course. If history is any indicator, the purchase of those facilities will be made with a loan floated by DHL Int'l.

It goes without saying that this would have a chilling effect on ABX labor negotiations. Their next contract won't be anything like their last one, but at least most of them will have jobs.

I'm not trying to rain on your parade, only to suggest that developing a strategy by which Astar pilots win is going to be considerably more difficult than devising one by which John Dasburg and DHL loses...

 

[AV8OR]

"I'm not trying to rain on your parade, only to suggest that developing a strategy by which Astar pilots win is going to be considerably more difficult than devising one by which John Dasburg and DHL loses..."

All I'm sayin, is if they come with that, they better come swift and hard, cause once the handwriting is on the wall, and it spells replacement, there's a significant number of us who'll be more than ready to help them enjoy the fruits of that decision. Basically if your gonna kill me anyway, I'm prepared to shoot us both. True, they'll survive, but it'll smart. And I'll walk away with a smile.

As far as us winning, the ball is in their court. They either think they're getting there money's worth or they don't. If they think integration cost them a load of money with ABX and AStar crews working their a$$ off to deliver the product, they'll really enjoy the results of union busting and I'm not talking about picketing.

 

[abxnightrider]

Guy Guys, what are 757's and 767's gonna fall from the sky their is a huge demand by big players for these aircraft, willing to pay top dollar use common sense, and to have another catastrophic situation in the usa. to lose 250 million in a week or two again to save maybe 10-20 million a year on cheaper pilots, and lose customers. COme on , I heard the panamanians have already been to school on 757's so which ones are you getting , dream on
Talk is cheap in Aviation, Actions is what I go on, not he said she said

 

[big pimpn']

Guy Guys, what are 757's and 767's gonna fall from the sky their is a huge demand by big players for these aircraft, willing to pay top dollar use common sense, and to have another catastrophic situation in the usa. to lose 250 million in a week or two again to save maybe 10-20 million a year on cheaper pilots, and lose customers. COme on , I heard the panamanians have already been to school on 757's so which ones are you getting , dream on
Talk is cheap in Aviation, Actions is what I go on, not he said she said

One of the last trips I flew in the 8, all the tail numbers for the 767s that CHI already owns was on the paperwork in the entry door of an ATI aircraft. That combined with the fact that all the 767 training manuals are listed on the ATI employee website and the mechanics are supposedly already going to Boeing school, I would say they are falling from the sky; or being shoved down our throat depending on your perspective. As for me, I personally don’t know if I would take a recall into a 777 with P. Fox at the helm. Keep in mind, we are talking about 200 models like the ones Astar operate, I am sure a company such as Fed Ex would be in the market for 300s or better.

 

[TWA]

Hmm, I didn't think Astar had any 76s. Anyhow, they aren't quite as scarce as everyone is making them out to be right now. Expensive? Maybe, but if you need them and have the $$$ they are out there. I was able to locate about a dozen 200s and a dozen 300s for sale. I know for a major carrier those are small numbers, but it just shows they're available it you need them.

 

[ABXbooger]

ABX has the 767's, 42 on firm order total, 36 delivered. Mgmt has said they are actively looking at 767's of all varieties, 200 and 300's. They have looked at a bunch, even sent MX people to look, If they haven't bought it was because either the price was too high, or the frames were crapped out. We are still looking. Yeah, lots of planes on the market, but they are all used airplanes and the devil is in the history.

I checked out CHI, looks like they are a cargo aircraft leasing company.

 

[canadflyau]

CHI bought the AA -200s that were ex-TWA. They are at aeronavali in Italy having the Boeing designed door cut in them. www.aeronavali.com

Aeronavali: Boeing 767-200 Special Freighter conversion annunced for cargo aircraft management20/01/2005Aeronavali, an Alenia Aeronautica/Finmeccanica company, today announced an agreement with U.S.-based Cargo Aircraft Management, Inc., “kick-off” customer for the passenger to freighter conversion of Boeing 767-200 aircraft.The agreement, for ten conversions including options, is worth around 100 million dollars. The conversions will be accomplished in the frame of the agreement with Boeing through which Aeronavali is the sole company licensed to market and convert Boeing 767-200 passenger airplanes to freighters using the Boeing Amended Type Certificate.

Aeronavali will modify the Boeing 767-200 passenger airplanes into freighters at their facilities in Italy. The first aircraft is scheduled to begin conversion in the second half of 2005, with delivery anticipated in third quarter 2006.“We are very pleased to have Cargo Aircraft Management as a new customer for the launch of this challenging program, which confirms the excellent characteristics of the Boeing 767-200 as a freighter. This agreement testifies once again the winning strategy of Aeronavali to work in strict cooperation with Boeing in the development of wide body aircraft modification programs,” said Pompeo Sorice, Aeronavali’s Chairman & Chief Executive Officer.

Mr. Peter Fox, CAM’s President/Chairman said: “We are very enthusiastic about the future of the Boeing 767-200 Special Freighter in service and are pleased to be partnering with Aeronavali and Boeing. With the eventual retirements of our DC-8 freighters world-wide, we believe that the Boeing 767-200 Special Freighter will provide our lease customers the highest quality, most reliable replacement aircraft available. Specially designed as a 20-position freighter, the modification, we believe, will become the dominant medium wide-body freighter in the world.

” Mr. Mike Stewart, Boeing Commercial Aviation Services vice president said: “Boeing is working with Aeronavali on several freighter conversion programs, and we congratulate them on launching the Boeing 767-200 Special Freighter. This launch reinforces the movement of cargo carriers into a more efficient and cost-effective generation of former passenger aircraft. With the features uniquely offered by our team, the customer gains increased performance, capability, and growth.”

With revenues around 170 million dollars in 2003, Aeronavali has 1,500 employees at its plants in Venice, Naples and Brindisi. The company has carried out commercial and military airplane overhauls and conversions for over 50 years on models such as the Boeing DC-8, DC-10/MD-10, MD-11, MD-80, 707, 727, ATR42/72, BR1150 "Atlantic," C130H, G222/C27J, Boeing 707 Tanker Transport, E-3A AWACS, TCA and 767 GTTA for the Italian Air Force. In a highly competitive market, Aeronavali aims to expand its commercial business and internationally extend its military work.Aeronavali is a member of Boeing Commercial Aviation Services’ international network of modification and engineering facilities, and currently modifies DC-10, MD-10 and MD-11 passenger airplanes to freighters for Boeing.Cargo Aircraft Management is a wholly owned subsidiary of Cargo Holdings International, Inc., and owns Boeing 727 and 767 freighter aircraft for lease to freighter operators.

Boeing Commercial Aviation Services provides customer-focused services and support to improve fleet utilization, reduce costs, leverage leading-edge information management, and ensure passenger well-being. In addition to comprehensive engineering and technical support to airlines worldwide, Boeing Commercial Aviation Services also provides airlines 24-hour customer support, aircraft interiors and in-flight entertainment system modifications, avionics upgrades and freighter conversions. Its staff has access to all of the Boeing-developed engineering data used in the design of Boeing and Douglas jetliners.

 

[erichartmann]

Well CHI already OWNS some 767's. And have since late 2004. As for the 757's I have no idea.

I wouldn't be suprised to see DAE get 757's, I won't believe sh*t until my ass is in the seat.

And what do you define as major players? Besides FedEx, who is currently in the market for a large fleet of secondhand 757's/767's?

As I understand the players ATI and Capital fly for BAX. BAX is owned by Deutche Bann, the German railway. I would expect the CHI 767's to show up in the green and white.

BTW, the ex TWA 767's are pieces of crap. They were definately "rode hard and put away wet". For the first several years ABX had them they were referred to as the unh oh sisters (four of the 5 have N numbers with a 0 in them). The standard joke, given identical paint schemes, was you could id one of them at a distance because it was the one with maint. truck parked next to it.

 

[dsee8driver]

The rumor that I heard is that all DHL international freight is going to be moved by Atlas/Polar and domestic moved by ATI/Cappy. Again this is just a rumor that I heard. I agree that ABX/Astar do a great job moving the boxes, but it sounds like the Germans are going for the lowest bidder.

I don't think it's the lowest bidder. We were told Mr. Fox bought ATI for $1.00, basically given ATI for goverment purpose since the Germans cannot own ATI. But we think the Germans really call the shots here and might as well use "THEIR" airline.

 

[xspud]

I don't think it's the lowest bidder. We were told Mr. Fox bought ATI for $1.00, basically given ATI for goverment purpose since the Germans cannot own ATI. But we think the Germans really call the shots here and might as well use "THEIR" airline.

The post you've quoted is talking about DHL which is a subsidiary of Deutsche Post. I believe it's Deutsche Bann that "calls the shots" at ATI? Deutsche Post and Deutsche Bann are completely different companies. It's something like suggesting that UPS might use FedEx overseas because they're also Americans.

Since ATI is an independent company, they are certainly able to go after DHL contracts and I wouldn't be surprised to see ATI land some DHL flying. DHL uses more contractors worldwide than they can probably count. Now that they finally have the system in ILN running reasonably well, I can't imagine they would risk overturning the apple cart by trying to integrate a third domestic carrier. Trying to replace ABX or Astar overnight (or even quickly) would be practically impossible. Aside from the fact that it would cause a service meltdown (which they can't afford), no one that I can think of has the lift to replace either one. DHL doesn't have a history of buying airplanes for anyone; they typically work with existing carriers.

 

[shooter]

.... Now that they finally have the system in ILN running reasonably well, I can't imagine they would risk overturning the apple cart by trying to integrate a third domestic carrier. .....quote]

I have to agree with this. All DHL will have to do is look at UPS and see that many carriers into one hub is a disaster. Speaking of UPS prior to their airline, didnt Ryan guys get screwed in that deal or something? I dont really know the whole story, only bits and pieces.

 

[Whistlin' Dan]

Now that they finally have the system in ILN running reasonably well, I can't imagine they would risk overturning the apple cart by trying to integrate a third domestic carrier.

As I understand it, most of the problem at ILN wasn't with the airline ops per se, it was getting the planes unloaded and the packages sorted. Now that the ramp and sort people are coming up to speed, it probably doesn't matter much from an operational standpoint whose planes they're unloading. Assuming they're all non-union, it probably doesn't matter much to them, either.

Trying to replace ABX or Astar overnight (or even quickly) would be practically impossible. Aside from the fact that it would cause a service meltdown (which they can't afford), no one that I can think of has the lift to replace either one.

Overnight, no. But 1 or 2 planes at a time over the course of a year, always with the promise that "it's just temporary" or "just this once, pretty please?" I don't see what's stopping them. How long has NWA been operating their 747 nightly to Anchorage, while Astar DC-8 crews have been sitting idle? Gemini has 7-year MD-11 Captains, while it's been longer than that since some Astar pilots have looked out a window they could call their own.

If you want to know the mindset of Deutschepost, may I suggest a quick read of "Rise and Fall of the Third Reich" by William Shirer? It explains a lot about how these guys operate.

DHL doesn't have a history of buying airplanes for anyone; they typically work with existing carriers.

I beg to differ. DHL has a LONG history of growing carriers to compete with their "own." All they need to do is offer a contract to an existing carrier, contingent upon them securing a certain number of airplanes. That carrier then goes to a bank or leasing company with contract in hand, where it's like money in the bank.

Do NOT underestimate these guys! You're not working for "Airways" anymore...

 

[Whistlin' Dan]

All DHL will have to do is look at UPS and see that many carriers into one hub is a disaster.

All DHL has to do is look at UPS and see that one carrier into one hub means $224/hr 727 Captains with full benefits, company-funded retirement (w/medical), and the spectre of a service-crippling job action every 7 years.

I don't remember if the Ryen guys got hosed specifically, but I knew a bunch who didn't get hired when UPS started picking the "low-hanging fruit" from the trees of their sub-contractors. I believe there was a class-action suit from which many received a settlement, but I'm not sure what the monetary amount was. Most of 'em kept working, if that tells you anything.

 

[shooter]

All DHL has to do is look at UPS and see that one carrier into one hub means $224/hr 727 Captains with full benefits, company-funded retirement (w/medical), and the spectre of a service-crippling job action every 7 years.

I don't remember if the Ryen guys got hosed specifically, but I knew a bunch who didn't get hired when UPS started picking the "low-hanging fruit" from the trees of their sub-contractors. I believe there was a class-action suit from which many received a settlement, but I'm not sure what the monetary amount was. Most of 'em kept working, if that tells you anything.

understood. what I meant by disaster was not pilot related. It was tracking, paperwork and having every speed dial full with different carriers ops control. kind of a "did I tell you that or did I say that to carrier B, C or D?" internal disaster.

thanks for more info on the UPS hiring history.

 

[xspud]

As I understand it, most of the problem at ILN wasn't with the airline ops per se, it was getting the planes unloaded and the packages sorted.

ILN is an express freight hub and DHL is competing with 2 other express companies that offer guaranteed delivery before 10:30AM or even earlier. Corporate customers cut very little slack for the express delivery carrier. The airline ops problems that I've seen involve recovery and extra sections, which is made dramatically more difficult by multiple carriers. In this business, even one canceled flight or one late delivery can cost an important contract. Multiple carriers add layers of management/ops people to go through to get something done, and multiplies the possible glitches.

Overnight, no. But 1 or 2 planes at a time over the course of a year, always with the promise that "it's just temporary" or "just this once, pretty please?" I don't see what's stopping them.

Contracturally, I don't think anything is. Astar may have some guarantees in it's ACMI. It costs DHL a little bit of money to park an ABX aircraft but it's not that much. For the reasons I gave above, I think it would be a bad operational decision to bring other operators into the domestic mix. I think DHL is going to be cautious about service problems for a while. I don't have any illusions, though. They might try piece-meal replacement. In that case, I expect a dramatic response from both pilot groups.

Right now, they have a couple of "international" flights out of ILN (NWA & Lufthansa). I expect we'll eventually see more and they won't be ABX or Astar. Probably Polar, could even be ATI.

I beg to differ. DHL has a LONG history of growing carriers to compete with their "own." All they need to do is offer a contract to an existing carrier, contingent upon them securing a certain number of airplanes. That carrier then goes to a bank or leasing company with contract in hand, where it's like money in the bank.

DHL needs lift and they sign up another carrier. And the flying overlaps so there's always opportunities for the existing carriers to shrink. But I'm not aware of one example where they offered a contract contingent on securing airplanes (Jade might be an exception). ABX has said that the DHL ACMI agreement doesn't pay enough to buy airplanes, not enough return on the investment. Our current batch of 767's was financed on the promise that we would earn more than the DHL ACMI.

Do NOT underestimate these guys! You're not working for "Airways" anymore...

I think we've had this conversation before. I'm of the opinion that DHL is well on their way to taking a back seat to UPS/FedEx in the world market. Until they change their ways, working for any carrier in the DHL system will be a mediocre job or worse, thanks to the lack of growth opportunities. Don't misunderstand me, I enjoy working for ABX (not Airways/Astar) and I appreciate what we have. But flying primarily for DHL as it currently exists means it will be a struggle to maintain what we have. I don't think anyone at either pilot group has any illusions about that. And I'm convinced that both groups are prepared to fight to protect what we have.

 

[Whistlin' Dan]

ABX has said that the DHL ACMI agreement doesn't pay enough to buy airplanes, not enough return on the investment. Our current batch of 767's was financed on the promise that we would earn more than the DHL ACMI.

...flying primarily for DHL as it currently exists means it will be a struggle to maintain what we have. I don't think anyone at either pilot group has any illusions about that. And I'm convinced that both groups are prepared to fight to protect what we have.

I agree with most of what you said, not sure about a couple things though. I DO think that ABX is being very wise in not basing their future solely upon DHL, DC-8's, or airplanes without cargo doors. The problem in dealing with a company that forces you to compete solely on price is that there is no bottom...there's always somebody willing to do it cheaper, even if it means shortcuts must be taken. Look at how many subcontractors have flown for DHL over the years that are now bankrupt.

It will be interesting to see how DHL will respond to an ACMI carrier that doesn't need them for their continued survival. I think it would make them extremely nervous to know that one of their prime subcontractors could tell them to take a hike if they were pressured to lower their rates beyond a certain point.

I know there's some animosity between ABX and Astar over scope, but has ABX taken any position on how they would respond in the event there's a strike at Astar?

 

[Jurasicpilot]

Where are the pictures that were going around on this subject. It showed a full yellow 76 -200 parked at the end of the shop by the DC-10. It had a CHI N number. Thats how this whole d##n rumor got started.

 

[Jeff Helgeson]

ExTWA metal

As I understand the players ATI and Capital fly for BAX. BAX is owned by Deutche Bann, the German railway. I would expect the CHI 767's to show up in the green and white.

BTW, the ex TWA 767's are pieces of crap. They were definately "rode hard and put away wet". For the first several years ABX had them they were referred to as the unh oh sisters (four of the 5 have N numbers with a 0 in them). The standard joke, given identical paint schemes, was you could id one of them at a distance because it was the one with maint. truck parked next to it.

That is probably true about the 767s. They were early models of the type and have a lot of flight hours on them.

However, the 757s from TWA ala AA are some of the last ones off the assembly line, circa late 1990s - early 2000s. Those will be nice birds for the carrier that get them after the conversion.

 

[tired_pilot]

Express.net to get small DHL contract

Rumors from former company they're about to sign a 3-5 plane 2 year deal..

 

[ABXbooger]

just saw that Express net leased a A-300 to EAT a european DHL airline...