What's going on at ATI?

[FreightBumper]

These might be fill ins for when ASTAR is locked out or walks!

 

[AV8OR]

These might be fill ins for when ASTAR is locked out or walks!

Alright freight, I'll play. Since you posted this statement twice now. Once on Page one, and again on page 2.

On both accounts.....aint gonna happen. Sorry.

 

[xspud]

Our latest rumor is that the planned 727 expansion was stopped because the company would like to bring 757's on the property...

I was hoping we'd see 757's as DC-9 replacments at ABX, but then FedEx announced plans to convert 90 of them, so I don't expect 757's will be in our price range anytime soon.

Our rumor was 2 planes for BAX and a indefinate number for DHL in Miami.

Wonder what plans DHL has for MIA? Is the Panama City DHL outfit flying in there (can't remember the name--Aero something)? Do they have anything other than pallet/belly space to S. America? Not likely that they'll exchange the ILN airplane for anyone other than Astar or ABX.

 

[Buckeye]

Remember whom holds the building rights and rights to the ILN airport, and whom runs the sort hubs. And has a few years left on their ACMI contract.

 

[ABXbooger]

I would imagine 75's are a very hot commodity, with FDX in the market for at least 90. I would think ABX would be in the market for them to replace the 9's, but the cost is too high. It is basically the same price for a 757 as for a 767-200 ad you get a whole lot more with the 767.

 

[Whistlin' Dan]

If it's true, and ATI aircraft begin to replace AStar or ABX lift, ATI's reliability will probably be better, cause DHL will reap the friggin whirlwind in Building 11 for that stunt.

...which will give DHL what they really want...an excuse to dump Astar altogether. They'll pay off Dasburg and his investors for the 5 years remaining on his contract. Remember, DHL's contract is with him, not with you. It would probably be cheaper to offer Astar an early release from that contract and to clone a new airline, than to pay UPS/FedEx rates to Astar pilots for the next 5 years.

Of course, Dasburg and his investors will benefit from that, while the pilot list shrinks to only that necessary to service what little military and ad-hoc charter work Astar currently does. It's probably not enough to warrant keeping Astar's certificate active.

As far as facilities - if the above takes place, Astar will neither need, nor be able to afford, the facilities they're currently occupying. Who might be in the market to buy them? ATI, of course. If history is any indicator, the purchase of those facilities will be made with a loan floated by DHL Int'l.

It goes without saying that this would have a chilling effect on ABX labor negotiations. Their next contract won't be anything like their last one, but at least most of them will have jobs.

I'm not trying to rain on your parade, only to suggest that developing a strategy by which Astar pilots win is going to be considerably more difficult than devising one by which John Dasburg and DHL loses...

 

[AV8OR]

"I'm not trying to rain on your parade, only to suggest that developing a strategy by which Astar pilots win is going to be considerably more difficult than devising one by which John Dasburg and DHL loses..."

All I'm sayin, is if they come with that, they better come swift and hard, cause once the handwriting is on the wall, and it spells replacement, there's a significant number of us who'll be more than ready to help them enjoy the fruits of that decision. Basically if your gonna kill me anyway, I'm prepared to shoot us both. True, they'll survive, but it'll smart. And I'll walk away with a smile.

As far as us winning, the ball is in their court. They either think they're getting there money's worth or they don't. If they think integration cost them a load of money with ABX and AStar crews working their a$$ off to deliver the product, they'll really enjoy the results of union busting and I'm not talking about picketing.

 

[abxnightrider]

Guy Guys, what are 757's and 767's gonna fall from the sky their is a huge demand by big players for these aircraft, willing to pay top dollar use common sense, and to have another catastrophic situation in the usa. to lose 250 million in a week or two again to save maybe 10-20 million a year on cheaper pilots, and lose customers. COme on , I heard the panamanians have already been to school on 757's so which ones are you getting , dream on
Talk is cheap in Aviation, Actions is what I go on, not he said she said

 

[big pimpn']

Guy Guys, what are 757's and 767's gonna fall from the sky their is a huge demand by big players for these aircraft, willing to pay top dollar use common sense, and to have another catastrophic situation in the usa. to lose 250 million in a week or two again to save maybe 10-20 million a year on cheaper pilots, and lose customers. COme on , I heard the panamanians have already been to school on 757's so which ones are you getting , dream on
Talk is cheap in Aviation, Actions is what I go on, not he said she said

One of the last trips I flew in the 8, all the tail numbers for the 767s that CHI already owns was on the paperwork in the entry door of an ATI aircraft. That combined with the fact that all the 767 training manuals are listed on the ATI employee website and the mechanics are supposedly already going to Boeing school, I would say they are falling from the sky; or being shoved down our throat depending on your perspective. As for me, I personally don’t know if I would take a recall into a 777 with P. Fox at the helm. Keep in mind, we are talking about 200 models like the ones Astar operate, I am sure a company such as Fed Ex would be in the market for 300s or better.

 

[TWA]

Hmm, I didn't think Astar had any 76s. Anyhow, they aren't quite as scarce as everyone is making them out to be right now. Expensive? Maybe, but if you need them and have the $$$ they are out there. I was able to locate about a dozen 200s and a dozen 300s for sale. I know for a major carrier those are small numbers, but it just shows they're available it you need them.

 

[ABXbooger]

ABX has the 767's, 42 on firm order total, 36 delivered. Mgmt has said they are actively looking at 767's of all varieties, 200 and 300's. They have looked at a bunch, even sent MX people to look, If they haven't bought it was because either the price was too high, or the frames were crapped out. We are still looking. Yeah, lots of planes on the market, but they are all used airplanes and the devil is in the history.

I checked out CHI, looks like they are a cargo aircraft leasing company.

 

[canadflyau]

CHI bought the AA -200s that were ex-TWA. They are at aeronavali in Italy having the Boeing designed door cut in them. www.aeronavali.com

Aeronavali: Boeing 767-200 Special Freighter conversion annunced for cargo aircraft management20/01/2005Aeronavali, an Alenia Aeronautica/Finmeccanica company, today announced an agreement with U.S.-based Cargo Aircraft Management, Inc., “kick-off” customer for the passenger to freighter conversion of Boeing 767-200 aircraft.The agreement, for ten conversions including options, is worth around 100 million dollars. The conversions will be accomplished in the frame of the agreement with Boeing through which Aeronavali is the sole company licensed to market and convert Boeing 767-200 passenger airplanes to freighters using the Boeing Amended Type Certificate.

Aeronavali will modify the Boeing 767-200 passenger airplanes into freighters at their facilities in Italy. The first aircraft is scheduled to begin conversion in the second half of 2005, with delivery anticipated in third quarter 2006.“We are very pleased to have Cargo Aircraft Management as a new customer for the launch of this challenging program, which confirms the excellent characteristics of the Boeing 767-200 as a freighter. This agreement testifies once again the winning strategy of Aeronavali to work in strict cooperation with Boeing in the development of wide body aircraft modification programs,” said Pompeo Sorice, Aeronavali’s Chairman & Chief Executive Officer.

Mr. Peter Fox, CAM’s President/Chairman said: “We are very enthusiastic about the future of the Boeing 767-200 Special Freighter in service and are pleased to be partnering with Aeronavali and Boeing. With the eventual retirements of our DC-8 freighters world-wide, we believe that the Boeing 767-200 Special Freighter will provide our lease customers the highest quality, most reliable replacement aircraft available. Specially designed as a 20-position freighter, the modification, we believe, will become the dominant medium wide-body freighter in the world.

” Mr. Mike Stewart, Boeing Commercial Aviation Services vice president said: “Boeing is working with Aeronavali on several freighter conversion programs, and we congratulate them on launching the Boeing 767-200 Special Freighter. This launch reinforces the movement of cargo carriers into a more efficient and cost-effective generation of former passenger aircraft. With the features uniquely offered by our team, the customer gains increased performance, capability, and growth.”

With revenues around 170 million dollars in 2003, Aeronavali has 1,500 employees at its plants in Venice, Naples and Brindisi. The company has carried out commercial and military airplane overhauls and conversions for over 50 years on models such as the Boeing DC-8, DC-10/MD-10, MD-11, MD-80, 707, 727, ATR42/72, BR1150 "Atlantic," C130H, G222/C27J, Boeing 707 Tanker Transport, E-3A AWACS, TCA and 767 GTTA for the Italian Air Force. In a highly competitive market, Aeronavali aims to expand its commercial business and internationally extend its military work.Aeronavali is a member of Boeing Commercial Aviation Services’ international network of modification and engineering facilities, and currently modifies DC-10, MD-10 and MD-11 passenger airplanes to freighters for Boeing.Cargo Aircraft Management is a wholly owned subsidiary of Cargo Holdings International, Inc., and owns Boeing 727 and 767 freighter aircraft for lease to freighter operators.

Boeing Commercial Aviation Services provides customer-focused services and support to improve fleet utilization, reduce costs, leverage leading-edge information management, and ensure passenger well-being. In addition to comprehensive engineering and technical support to airlines worldwide, Boeing Commercial Aviation Services also provides airlines 24-hour customer support, aircraft interiors and in-flight entertainment system modifications, avionics upgrades and freighter conversions. Its staff has access to all of the Boeing-developed engineering data used in the design of Boeing and Douglas jetliners.

 

[erichartmann]

Well CHI already OWNS some 767's. And have since late 2004. As for the 757's I have no idea.

I wouldn't be suprised to see DAE get 757's, I won't believe sh*t until my ass is in the seat.

And what do you define as major players? Besides FedEx, who is currently in the market for a large fleet of secondhand 757's/767's?

As I understand the players ATI and Capital fly for BAX. BAX is owned by Deutche Bann, the German railway. I would expect the CHI 767's to show up in the green and white.

BTW, the ex TWA 767's are pieces of crap. They were definately "rode hard and put away wet". For the first several years ABX had them they were referred to as the unh oh sisters (four of the 5 have N numbers with a 0 in them). The standard joke, given identical paint schemes, was you could id one of them at a distance because it was the one with maint. truck parked next to it.

 

[dsee8driver]

The rumor that I heard is that all DHL international freight is going to be moved by Atlas/Polar and domestic moved by ATI/Cappy. Again this is just a rumor that I heard. I agree that ABX/Astar do a great job moving the boxes, but it sounds like the Germans are going for the lowest bidder.

I don't think it's the lowest bidder. We were told Mr. Fox bought ATI for $1.00, basically given ATI for goverment purpose since the Germans cannot own ATI. But we think the Germans really call the shots here and might as well use "THEIR" airline.

 

[xspud]

I don't think it's the lowest bidder. We were told Mr. Fox bought ATI for $1.00, basically given ATI for goverment purpose since the Germans cannot own ATI. But we think the Germans really call the shots here and might as well use "THEIR" airline.

The post you've quoted is talking about DHL which is a subsidiary of Deutsche Post. I believe it's Deutsche Bann that "calls the shots" at ATI? Deutsche Post and Deutsche Bann are completely different companies. It's something like suggesting that UPS might use FedEx overseas because they're also Americans.

Since ATI is an independent company, they are certainly able to go after DHL contracts and I wouldn't be surprised to see ATI land some DHL flying. DHL uses more contractors worldwide than they can probably count. Now that they finally have the system in ILN running reasonably well, I can't imagine they would risk overturning the apple cart by trying to integrate a third domestic carrier. Trying to replace ABX or Astar overnight (or even quickly) would be practically impossible. Aside from the fact that it would cause a service meltdown (which they can't afford), no one that I can think of has the lift to replace either one. DHL doesn't have a history of buying airplanes for anyone; they typically work with existing carriers.