What would you do?

[uscpilot]

Chad,
First off I am not an advocate of ATP. I should have said that at the outset. My argument was framed around your choosing between ATP or the more expensive academies. To me ATP is the lesser of two evils.I would not choose either, nor would I repeat my American Flyers mistake (I breathed a sigh of relief when you did not mention that place).
Despite my tone I do not claim to know everything. I respect your airline friends opinion, I just dont agree with them. That may be due to the fact that I fly freight, and did not go to Pan Am. However alot of the pilots here at Airnet did go to Pan Am. Which is just my point, you do not need to spend an insane amount of money (greater than 40000) to get a job in this industry.
I also dont see the point in spending an extra 20 grand just so you will likely get hired by the school that trained you. I realize that the economy is in the toilet right now, and smaller flight schools are especially dependent on a strong economy. But things will improve, if you dont think that then you should reconsider this whole career path. I mean if you are not an optomist these days then I dont see how you can face each morning without alot of beer.
At the risk of being repetitive check out Ari Ben Aviator (all multi, and no sim). I have nothing to gain financially by recomending them. My brother is in a similar situation as you he is college age and is taking a couple semesters off (notice much more than the 90 day joke at ATP) to get all his ratings. He can then instruct part time over the next two years while he finishes his degree. Now this may not be for everyone, though I cant imagine why. Have a true college experience, and get paid (not much) to fly. There are also women at college. Have you seen what Vero Beach has to offer, its God's waiting room down there. My brother tells me there are no women, its like being in prison (reference my "dont drop the soap").
Any way got to go, Good Luck

 

[T/SF34/A]

Whats with the students wearing uniforms at PanAm? Are they included in the $50,000.00?

Just be smart when deciding on where to go. The cheaper route may be the best way to go. (Just my opinion.) You can't defer your loans for too long after you complete your training. When you're a first year FO in that RJ you want to be flying you will be kicking yourself every month when it comes time to pay that bill. I can almost guarentee that your monthly loan payment for that much dough will be at least 1/3 of your pay, if not more.

 

[ChadCRJ]

USCPilot,

Do you know where your brother is going to get his training? I've visited vero beach and ft. pierce... but what are the hot spots down there around that area? South to West Palm?

Chad

 

[uscpilot]

Chad,
He is going to Ari Ben at Ft Pierce. All beech duchesses(sp?). He says the night life there sucks. Nobody his age. Its like they ship any one over 70 out of NYC and send them down there. He claims that the majority of the places there cater to either the red neck or geriatric (sp?) segments of the population with no middle ground. And when a girl walks into a bar it doesnt matter if she is hot or not, the horney pilots are all over her. They usually go to West Palm on the weekends. He is in the time building phase now for his commercial so he gets to fly to the keys, pretty cool.
Fly Safe

 

[ChadCRJ]

Ari Ben

Yea, I've heard those duchess they operate have had sometime put on them... Does he know if their are any plans of Ari getting any new twins in the near future?

 

[uscpilot]

there are rumors of pipers, but if that happens then the price will go up. The rumor goes on that they are trying to get more beeches.

 

[HAZ-MAT]

ahhh yes, the florida night life.. yep, if you are at any of those flight schools down there... you go out, and they'll be 1 girl and 15 guys all trying to grind on her at the same time... no lets do a spoof of "the night at the Roxbury"... 3 guys wearing their 4 bars on their shoulders, all knocking their heads...

 

[uscpilot]

Its funny how the hot chick rating system is relative. You can have an every day 5, but throw her into aviation and she's a 10. FA's are exempt. That is the situation in the Vero-Ft.Peirce area. How disappoiting it must be for all these college age guys. They think "all right I get to fly and chase tail for the next however many months". They think its going to be MTV beach house at the airport. Oh well I guess you get to know your hand quite well.

 

[BeachBum]

Yea, I've heard those duchess they operate have had sometime put on them... Does he know if their are any plans of Ari getting any new twins in the near future?

When choosing where you are going to train, don't place much value on the age of the planes. If they have wings and working engines, then the planes are fine. When you fly new planes, you pay a lot more for them and get nothing in return. Yeah, it's great to have some huge color GPS 8000 in you trainer, but what does it teach you. Nothing. The GPS is a crutch. You'll learn a lot more training in a plane with a VOR or two and DME if you're lucky. In the meantime, you'll save a ton of money flying a plane that was built 20 or 30 years ago but is still airworthy.

What do I think you should do? You're just out of high school. Go to college and get your ratings at a local Mom and Pop FBO. You'll save money, get to be a college student, get your ratings, and probably be in a better situation when you're all done. But that's just my opinion.

 

[stillaboo]

I 2nd BeachBum

Local FBO's usually will hire you on if you get all your rateings from them. Factory academies just graduate too many to be able to do this.

I would NEVER give up my college years! These are the best years of your life, and to waste them flying all the time is so foolish. When you're sitting in the cockpit of your RJ or 73, you will never say to yourself, 'man, I am SO glad I spent the best years of my life in a 'sausage-fest' pilot factory and got my degree through the mail.'

Just chill out some. The airplanes aren't going anywhere. Relax and get a non-aviation degree (the average pilot is furloughed 2 times in a career, and your 'aviation science' degree qualifies you as waiter, dishwasher, or retail salesman. I'd guess 'Home Depot' employs as many pilots as JetBlue). 18 years old, and you're already in a rush to do what, sit in a seat and monitor an auto-pilot and EFIS display for the next 40 years?

Get a 4 year, and get your rateings part time while you enjoy life a bit at a local FBO with 135 charter ops. Train more agressively in the summers, and you'll easily finish college at 22 with your CFI, a 4 year, and a job at the FBO you got your rateings at instructing part time, and flying King Airs part time. Apply to a regional, and you'll be in the right seat of a RJ or large prop at 24-25 years old. Majors by 32-35, and spend the next 25 years accumulating seniority and talking about the days when you used to go fly 172's around the patch and chase tail with your 'I'm a pilot' pick-up line at the college bars and chillin' on the deck with your buds trying to polish off a keg. At 18, you haven't even lived yet! You are only fooling yourself if you think you should make a career decision for the next 42 years based on what you think you want to do now at 18.

The route I took was different, and it was the best route for me. I have no regrets. I have my MBA to fall back on, never had to get my CFI, and got on to a 121 carrier at 25.

I think anyone who limits themselves to the FL training academies is making a big mistake. If you know you want avaition at 18, go to a school like UND or something, a place where you can get the college experience AND get flight training too. There is SO much more to life than aviation, and no 18 year old can know what they want without ever experiencing anything besides highschool. You're asking to burn-out, plain and simple.

-Boo!

 

[stillaboo]

What IS good flight training?

Don't pay a dime extra for upolstry, and anywhere that stresses the use of GPS is not where you want to fly. Airliners don't use GPS, and no pilot learns basic instrument skills with GPS either. Same thing with autopilots. Don't use 'em, and don't go anywhere that stresses them. Any monkey can fly a GPS direct straight and level with the auto-pilot on. You don't have to know anything to do that. Pilots are there for the unexpected, the un-anticipated, and the abnormal. We fly the plane from the airport up to cruise, working with ATC to dodge traffic and re-route over a different departure. We know the systems of our aircraft and can take a quick look at the guages and instantly know the state of our aircraft. We can look out the window and see what the weather will do before it even knows what it's doing. We don't panic when we lose an engine. We fly the airplane, do our jobs, and return the airplane safely to its destination. Pilots make their $ everywhere but 'at cruise when everything goes right'. Don't accept any training program that just puts you up at cruise building time and no real experience.

When you're flying professionally, you're expected to have the knowledge and skills to back up your position. #'s in a log book don't make experience. Experience doesn't happen in a book, and nobody builds instrument proficiency flying straight and level at cruise. Don't spend $ learning to do nothing.

Fly out of un-improved strips. Land and take-off at real short fields (1500' or less). Fly approaches in busy class C airports, mixing your 172 on final with a 737. Fly into mountainous terrain in the summer to learn what hot, high and heavy REALLY means. Fly IFR in the northeast or pacific west, were fog and clouds really happen. Fly into light icing conditions to see how ice builds up and how it affects handling. Spin an aircraft at altitude to learn how to recover from it, and what it feels like to scew it up.

Do all of this with your CFI, a guy who's done it all before, and will be there to prevent you from digging in on a soft field, over-running the short field, getting in the way of the 737 or messing up ATC's flow, hitting the mountains, VMC rolling in IMC, continuing on into iceing you can't handle, or spinning the aircraft when you're close to the ground. In short, give yourself as much variety as possible. That is experience your future employers want to see, and it will provide you with the radio skills, instrument proficiency, flying skill and decision making processes that will be the basis for a successful flight career.

A FL flight factory cannot offer all of this, nor can a hour building program where you just cruise around on auto-pilot everywhere. Find a school that can train you for the greatest variety of situations. It will take at least a year to get all these experiences. Anybody who says they can do it in less time is cheating you out of experiences you need, experiences that build the fundamentals of a great career instead of a tragicly short one.

-Boo!

 

[bobbysamd]

Bells and whistles

Don't pay a dime extra for upolstry, and anywhere that stresses the use of GPS is not where you want to fly. Airliners don't use GPS, and no pilot learns basic instrument skills with GPS either. Same thing with autopilots. Don't use 'em, and don't go anywhere that stresses them. Any monkey can fly a GPS direct straight and level with the auto-pilot on. You don't have to know anything to do that. Pilots are there for the unexpected, the un-anticipated, and the abnormal. We fly the plane from the airport up to cruise, working with ATC to dodge traffic and re-route over a different departure. We know the systems of our aircraft and can take a quick look at the guages and instantly know the state of our aircraft. We can look out the window and see what the weather will do before it even knows what it's doing. We don't panic when we lose an engine. We fly the airplane, do our jobs, and return the airplane safely to its destination. Pilots make their $ everywhere but 'at cruise when everything goes right'. Don't accept any training program that just puts you up at cruise building time and no real experience.

In other words, the only thing you need to learn, and to pay for, are good, sound fundamentals. To understand how GPS and RNAV, etc., works, you have to be able to calculate and fly a cross country using only your charts, arithmetic, normal weather sequences, and your E6-B. In fact, you need an instructor who will teach you how to fly cross-countries strictly by pilotage and ded reckonings and without navaids altogether. If you're paying for all the fancy bells and whistles and are being taught to use them to the detriment of the basics, your school is cheating you.

Eleven years ago, I had a student who had a hand-held GPS. He took it with him when he rode as an observer. I disliked that intensely because I felt he was using the GPS as a crutch instead of learning basic cross-country flying.

I appreciate Stillaboo's comments about learning how to fly from real, soft-fields and dirt fields. I disagree slightly with him, though, about schools not teaching these techniques well. For one thing, most schools will not let training flights use real soft-fields and dirt fields. But that doesn't mean that the techniques cannot be taught effectively. The point is to be able to fly competently you need to have all the diverse knowledge and experience you can obtain. You don't learn much if your learning experience is narrow and easy.

Good luck with your training.