What would you concede, and for what?

[SkyNation]

(posted this in reply on the ZW pilots thread, but wanted to get a broad response)

suppose that your airline is presented with the decision between concessions (pay, B scale, etc) in order to get something (growth, larger AC, maintain current flying/bases, etc). you are presented with the dilema of giving a little to maintain something, or 'sticking' and possibly losing out. how do you weigh it?

I'm trying to decide what is the sticking point? I know I'm oversimplifying things, but I'm wondering how it all shakes out.

what would you give up to maintain: (question to all pilots)

-growth, or the possibility of growth
-current bases
-current AC

$1/hr? $2? would you concede a 'B' scale? would you quit?

thanks for serious and insightful replies

 

[av8tor4239]

Quit!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

After being furloughed at the ripe age of 23, and a looming strike at the even riper age of 28..... I would quit

This job is not worth any less than what I make now 39.58/hr ATR (with 70 seat bypass pay)

When a CEO takes a pay cut, or we file bankrupcy, only then would I even CONSIDER a pay cut... until then, the guys in the EMBRY RIDDLE video in the other post on this forum can have this job!

PILOTS DONT BUY OR PLACE AIRFRAMES INTO SERVICE, MAGMT. DOES! PILOTS MOVE MACHINES FROM POINT A TO POINT B, AND NEGOTIATE FAIR WORKING AGREEMENTS.... IT IS THAT SIMPLE!

 

[ASAFOE120]

Ask any CMR pilot if concessions for growth is worth it. Ask any Skywest pilot about how their mgt promised them a separate payscale for the 70 if they just fly under one scale for a few months. av8tor4239 is right on. I worked long and hard to get to this point in my career and its just not worth doing it any longer if I cant feed and clothe my family off what I make.
Heck man, its a 4 hr commute from the time i leave my house till i get to atlanta (if theres a dang seat). Or, i can drive 5 mins to home depot, deliver pizzas a few nights a week, make the same money and be home in my own bed every night.

Oh well, whatever, ive had it!!

 

[rsspilot]

Quit!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

After being furloughed at the ripe age of 23, and a looming strike at the even riper age of 28..... I would quit

This job is not worth any less than what I make now 39.58/hr ATR (with 70 seat bypass pay)

When a CEO takes a pay cut, or we file bankrupcy, only then would I even CONSIDER a pay cut... until then, the guys in the EMBRY RIDDLE video in the other post on this forum can have this job!

PILOTS DONT BUY OR PLACE AIRFRAMES INTO SERVICE, MAGMT. DOES! PILOTS MOVE MACHINES FROM POINT A TO POINT B, AND NEGOTIATE FAIR WORKING AGREEMENTS....
deleted

 

[redbook]

Nobody wants advice from you, alter ego g0jet pilot. Go pm your fellow pilot hater D'Angelo.

 

[No Delay]

I would be willing to give up my flight attendant.


I am tired of growth. We have seen too much growth here at ASA over the past several years. I think we are flying some the biggest flight attendants in the industry.

 

[ASADriver]

Quit!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

After being furloughed at the ripe age of 23, and a looming strike at the even riper age of 28..... I would quit

Then go ahead and quit - nobody is holding a gun to your head. I wouldn't stay at a job I was miserable at. Only an idiot would keep working somewhere they don't like.

 

[ASADriver]

Heck man, its a 4 hr commute from the time i leave my house till i get to atlanta (if theres a dang seat). Or, i can drive 5 mins to home depot, deliver pizzas a few nights a week, make the same money and be home in my own bed every night.

Oh well, whatever, ive had it!!

Are you going to quit? Seems like you have it all figured out. Sounds like you would rather work at homedepot, or a pizza joint. Go for it - I would rather work at ASA, but that's just me. Make the jump and we will both be happy.

 

[DrewBlows]

what would you give up to maintain: (question to all pilots)

-growth, or the possibility of growth
-current bases
-current AC

This is a false proposition. Pilots don't buy airplanes or decide where they will be put into service. They don't pay the lease agreements or negotiate with lease holders. Pilots have no operational control outside of getting an airplane safely and efficiently from one point to another. Management negotiates with pilots to do just that, and when both sides come to an agreement a contract is signed and put into practice. When the contract becomes ammendible the process starts over again. All management can really promise is what is put into a contract. If you agree to a contract based on something that is not in it, you are a foolish negotiator. If you give up something for nothing, you are a foolish negotiator. If management signs a contract that they can't pay for, they are foolish (and should be removed by the board of directors). The fact is that it takes two sides to sign a contract, the last time I checked pilots have been able to live up to their end of the contracts that they have agreed to. Management at several airlines can't say the same (or at least claim they can't).

 

[Terrain Terrain]

i would give your mom up for a 2 day old crew meal, buts thats not really a concession now is it? dont ever give anything up. you fricken gash

 

[curtaindriver]

It's amazing what work groups (pilots) will concede out of fear. That is precisely what happened at AWAC. The management used fear as their ace card....UAL ultimately granted them that card. One of the things that is sad is that mgnt purposely misled the AWAC MEC, but the MEC unknowlingly led the pilots down the wrong path. It always blows my mind when these negotiations don't have language that protects it if certain issues that are promised aren't met. I.E. an escape clause, or parachute if you will.

My answer, I voted a sound "NO" on the concessionary contract at AWAC, I was vocal in my opposition of my Union leadership.....after the concessions passed I became the MEC communications chairman and a member of the negotiation committee. I worked with some of the finest people in the industry within the ALPA local at AWAC. We were a group that all believed we got screwed and were not gonna sit back and bitch but get involved. By the way, we were the new group of the union when the company came to us a second time asking for more concessions......HELL NO!!!! And the trend continues.

CD

Not to sling mud, but I work for a company now that does not have a union and I couldn't be happier. (praying the good relationship lasts)

 

[ASAFOE120]

Are you going to quit? Seems like you have it all figured out. Sounds like you would rather work at homedepot, or a pizza joint. Go for it - I would rather work at ASA, but that's just me. Make the jump and we will both be happy.

Well, at least your partly right. I've got my plan b figured out if we walk or they give away our airplanes. You better be working on yours too.

I NEVER said I would rather work another job besides ASA, but I have had it with all the crap they dish out (rearranging my off days, closing my base (dfw), not negotiating in good faith and dragging it out as long as they can, asking us for paycuts, etc...). Am I supposed to be happy about whats going on right now? Especially when SKYW Inc and ASA are so profitable. And with BL getting all that stock. What have we gotten from mgt that comes close to what he's getting? Has he worked harder or longer than me? No, I wont give them an inch. NOT ONE RED CENT!

If you can be happy here with what they are offering, more power to ya, but I will not sell out my fellow pilots! PERIOD!

To everyone but ASADRIVER, sorry about the vent session.

 

[khsgt]

Nothing, but then again, note who I work for....

 

[John Pennekamp]

what would you give up to maintain: (question to all pilots)

-growth, or the possibility of growth
-current bases
-current AC

$1/hr? $2? would you concede a 'B' scale? would you quit?

thanks for serious and insightful replies

1. Nothing. That's a false promise. You will give concessions with a promise of growth. That promise has been broken many times. They'll be back for more in a few months, telling you that what you gave wasn't enough, but if you give just a little more, they're sure you'll get the growth this time...

2. Nothing. Pilot costs could never realistically be tied to bases. That's a management red herring. If a base is not profitable in the system, no amounts of pay cuts will save it.

3. Nothing. See above. If an aircraft is leaving, then you can't save it, it will leave anyhow.

Don't mind ASADriver. He's a management troll and G.O. (That's "General Office for you non ATL-ites) pilot hater.

 

[Papa Woody]

There's a point where the cynicism of management has to be put to death.

There is no end to the concessions game as long as the game is played.

The game is played when an airline, and its management, thrives on profit off the backs of its workers year after paycut year.

The game ends when the workers quit the game.

I quit.

The executives will lose bigtime if they misjudge the resolve of its labor force. They are giddy with a feeling of control right now, still high-fiving each other over the Comair "growth" scam, along with the Skywest "temporary one rate" lie.

Let's fire these guys, OK?

 

[BuzzSaw]

Lets show solidarity with our MEC and let them do their jobs!!!

BL can have his stock options and Chuck can have his Delta retirement. Skywest can park every aeroplane out in the desert for all I care.

My knowledge, experience and professionalism costs something, $$$$.

Aviation Career Advice; Never depend on the airline for a living...
Start a side occupation now!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Buzz Saw