What should the airlines do?

[damnflyboy]

Ok, what is wrong with fewer employed pilots?

To everyone else except for pilots (well, some of us), nothing at all.

The public hates that we work 10 days a month (wrong) and all make $250,000/year (wrong). Never underestimate the power of misguided wealth envy.

Our management/shareholders can't understand why we want to get paid more for our vocation. The difference between a $23/hr newhire and a $50/hr newhire?...27 dollars per hour.

The public will be reluctant to pay more for their $89 ticket. Remember, they're entitled to that seat.

Until there are fewer pilots than seat positions, we will be paid garbage and get sold down the river by our senior colleagues.

The bottom line: Management, the flying public, the price of oil, and even pilots are all working against our cause for fair compensation.

 

[damnflyboy]

The public will be reluctant to pay more for their $89 ticket. Remember, they're entitled to that seat.

Case and point:

Airlines fail in latest fare-hike attempt

http://travel.usatoday.com/flights/post/2011/03/airlines-fail-in-latest-fare-hike-attempt/149638/1


*Side note, the comments below the article solidify this fact.*

 

[pilotyip]

Case and point:

Airlines fail in latest fare-hike attempt

http://travel.usatoday.com/flights/post/2011/03/airlines-fail-in-latest-fare-hike-attempt/149638/1


*Side note, the comments below the article solidify this fact.*

thank you, reenforces what I have been posting for years. In the end, not management, not pilots, not gov't, not unions will determine what pilots will be paid. The flying public with their purchase of tickets with their own hard earned money will determine the what the market does. A balancing of the forces in the market place will give the final result. Adam Smith figured it out in 1780.

 

[Twisted Mind]

Yip,

I am still waiting on your answer.

 

[pilotyip]

Yip,

I am still waiting on your answer.

thought I did, less pilots employed, more unemployment for pilots. damnflyboy, kinda picked up on it above BTW this is about market forces that can not be denied, if someone has a better way they have to step up and go for it.

 

[freight dork]

thank you, reenforces what I have been posting for years. In the end, not management, not pilots, not gov't, not unions will determine what pilots will be paid. The flying public with their purchase of tickets with their own hard earned money will determine the what the market does. A balancing of the forces in the market place will give the final result. Adam Smith figured it out in 1780.

Please explain how Asian carriers can afford to pay their contract expat pilots more that double what the USA airlines claim to be able to afford. The local pilots are also paid as well or better than pilots in the USA. Example: the local Indian ATR FO's I flew with in India were paid around $4000/month. I make $8000/month (after Vietnam taxes) on the ATR. The ticket prices in Asia are comparable in price to in the USA, fuel costs the same, airplanes cost the same (most airlines in Asia have new airplanes),and the pilots are paid more. I don't believe for a second that the USA airlines can't afford to pay us more and until they do I will remain in Asia where I'm paid a good salary and treated well.

 

[paid4training]

Because Vietnam is a sh!TTY country and no one wants to work there!!! If all the outta work pilots here went there, you wouldn't be able to make what you currently do. Most countries citizens don't have the money or facilities the US has for training and quality of life to have pilots flying for free with the hope and prayer of making some real money someday. And I thought Vietnam was a communist country where the prices are fixed etc.? I guess all those folks back in the late 60's and early 70's would be surprised!!!!

 

[Flyprdu]

Because Vietnam is a sh!TTY country and no one wants to work there!!! If all the outta work pilots here went there, you wouldn't be able to make what you currently do. Most countries citizens don't have the money or facilities the US has for training and quality of life to have pilots flying for free with the hope and prayer of making some real money someday. And I thought Vietnam was a communist country where the prices are fixed etc.? I guess all those folks back in the late 60's and early 70's would be surprised!!!!

This entire post is full of 'tard.

 

[damnflyboy]

Supply and Demand.

When a contractor comes to your home to perform a job, you want to pay him as little as possible for the job. If you call around and find out there is another contractor who will do the same thing for less, you hire that guy. If there's an entire group of contractors standing around, you create a bidding war.

The savings from paying less for the above service can then be spent, but not limited to, the following ways: Professional development, education for your children, saving for retirement, rainy-day fund, additional home repairs/additions, paying down mortgage, reducing student loan debt, and...yes..."unnecessary" expenditures to yourself like a vacation or an anniversary gift for your wife.

It can't get any more simple than that. I don't know why this is so difficult for our colleagues to understand.

The main thing to remember is that we are just labor. We are a common sprocket in the larger machine that is a business. We will be given only enough grease to keep us spinning so the big machine will work. If we begin to wear out, the price of grease will be weighed against the availability of a sprocket.

If you want to be expensive and essential, be rare.

 

[pilotyip]

Please explain how Asian carriers can afford to pay their contract expat pilots more that double what the USA airlines claim to be able to afford. The local pilots are also paid as well or better than pilots in the USA. Example: the local Indian ATR FO's I flew with in India were paid around $4000/month. I make $8000/month (after Vietnam taxes) on the ATR. The ticket prices in Asia are comparable in price to in the USA, fuel costs the same, airplanes cost the same (most airlines in Asia have new airplanes),and the pilots are paid more. I don't believe for a second that the USA airlines can't afford to pay us more and until they do I will remain in Asia where I'm paid a good salary and treated well.

Not sure I can answer that, In Vietnam and China, it could be gov't subsidies, in India it could be a rich man trying to gain market share by losing his money, or it be in other places like the Gulf states that the market has so little competition that you charge high tickets prices and only rich people who can afford those ticket prices rides and you get oil for free. If anyone has an understanding of how these salaries are supported please lets us know. As per above in the US no can raise prices, they see instant load drops.

 

[Dumb Pilot]

Because Vietnam is a sh!TTY country and no one wants to work there!!!

It is??? Hum? I quite enjoy my overnights there and I find it to be quite an interesting place, but of course you have made this assessment from your vast experience being there right?. But lets place some value in the point you want to convey, that still doesn't explain why the salaries are higher in Japan, England, The Netherlands and all other first world countries where supply and demand issues are as restrictive if not even more than here in the US.

 

[Twisted Mind]

No you didn’t answer the question. I will rephrase the question. Why do you believe that quantity of jobs is better than quality of jobs?

 

[CX880]

Why do we get paid low? One word. Instutuionalized. They have used the unions in a way to lower expectations and the bar. Corporate greed has a lot to do with it too. Why would they pay more thant the absolute minimum? The only thing we got going for us is supply and demand.

 

[CX880]

It is??? Hum? I quite enjoy my overnights there and I find it to be quite an interesting place, but of course you have made this assessment from your vast experience being there right?. But lets place some value in the point you want to convey, that still doesn't explain why the salaries are higher in Japan, England, The Netherlands and all other first world countries where supply and demand issues are as restrictive if not even more than here in the US.

there is a difference between living in and visiting Vietnam on a layover. they pay more because no first world citizen wants to work there.

those countries you mention are socialist, they value colectivisim rather than corporate profits.

 

[Dumb Pilot]

there is a difference between living in and visiting Vietnam on a layover. they pay more because no first world citizen wants to work there.

those countries you mention are socialist, they value colectivisim rather than corporate profits.

Really? I wonder why so many Americans and Europeans are retiring there then???

Sorry kid, I don't recognize you as somebody that has neither the experience nor the maturity to explain to me how the world works.

 

[paid4training]

It is??? Hum? I quite enjoy my overnights there and I find it to be quite an interesting place, but of course you have made this assessment from your vast experience being there right?. But lets place some value in the point you want to convey, that still doesn't explain why the salaries are higher in Japan, England, The Netherlands and all other first world countries where supply and demand issues are as restrictive if not even more than here in the US.

So you live there then and you want your grandchildren raised there? You have zero knowledge of where I have lived or not so therefore you are making an "assessment" from your vast knowledge and understanding or lack there of. If you read and understand my previous post it is self explanatory. It is very difficult either by user fees, availability of instruction, or regulatory restrictions for most if not all countries to promote aviation. If working overseas is so great then why doesnt everyone do it?
If said countries had an organization who's purpose was to promote and support air commerce, those countries would have more pilots chasing fewer jobs like in this country. Like another post wrote, supply and demand!!!!

 

[paid4training]

And this is taken from a website explaining why people are retiring there....

Asian countries in the past and the trend is continuing, which demonstrates the importance of these places when it comes to retirement destinations. As compared to other countries in Southeast Asia, the cost of living is lowest in Vietnam, which makes it one of the most preferred retirement destinations in the region.
http://www.bestplacesretire.com/retire-in-vietnam.html

There is your answer, the same reason you can fly across the country for $99 because the "greatest generation" is cheap!!!!

 

[Dumb Pilot]

Like another post wrote, supply and demand!!!!

You have been fixated in Vietnam as if that was the only place in the world where the salaries were higher than in the USA but you still haven't answered the most basic of questions, you have said that the salaries are higher because the place was "********************ty" and nobody wants to live there, then how about Germany, Great Britain, the Netherlands, the salaries are higher there because they don't have supply and demand issues? or because nobody wants to live there? the supply and demand situation is even worst in some of those countries than it is here in the US or isn't Europe the biggest exporter of foreign pilots? Why? They have higher salaries because it was hard fought to have those salaries, that is what is missing here in the US. just to generalize and say that pilots are well paid in a particular place because it is ********************ty, its ridiculous

If working overseas is so great then why doesnt everyone do it?

Mostly because their interview failure rate is about 60%:nuts:

Sorry, I am just tired of hearing the same excuses for the salary degradation in the US, the cost of living is cheaper (you can also get pretty affordable housing outside of the metropolitan areas in other countries, even in Europe) we pay less taxes (that is the one that shows the most ignorance, people don't really understand what is our tax liability here in the US) If they raise the pay then the loads will fall (talking about being intoxicated with the koolaid, Jeez) and all the other stupid arguments. I just don't buy them

 

[pilotyip]

If they raise the pay then the loads will fall (talking about being intoxicated with the koolaid, Jeez) and all the other stupid arguments. I just don't buy them

it has already happened, the airlines had to raise fares due to oil increases. The loads have dropped; just look at UAL/CAL how they scaling back because loads have dropped. It is interesting that this is happening in an improving economy.

 

[Dumb Pilot]

it has already happened, the airlines had to raise fares due to oil increases. The loads have dropped; just look at UAL/CAL how they scaling back because loads have dropped. It is interesting that this is happening in an improving economy.

Oil has been rising in price since it first started to come out of the ground PYip, the bean counters are the ones that have to worry about that and set their fares accordantly, airlines around the world are paying high fuel prices and dealing with competition as well but their pilots are paid well, sorry but I don't buy it

 

[pilotyip]

airlines around the world are paying high fuel prices and dealing with competition as well but their pilots are paid well, sorry but I don't buy it

Yes and so as I asked above can anyone explain how they do it. If it were easy to do, someone in this country would have tried to follow that model. I am betting most of these 3rd world countries with high salaries are subsidized by their gov't to get airlines off the ground and build the aviation infrastructure.

Of course we could bring back the CAB from 1938 that was eliminated in 1978 under de-reg. Then airlines could set monopoly prices on routes awarded to them, pilot could strike ask for more money, the CAB would see this as a cost increases and allow higher prices. Of course back then we had what 1/2? Maybe a 1/3? Of the airline jobs we have now, but who cares at least the senior guys would benefit.

BTW. If anyone has the answer to this, it their duty to start an airline and make it the perfect place to work and then attract all the pilots and put the other airlines out of business.

 

[paid4training]

Yes and so as I asked above can anyone explain how they do it. If it were easy to do, someone in this country would have tried to follow that model. I am betting most of these 3rd world countries with high salaries are subsidized by their gov't to get airlines off the ground and build the aviation infrastructure.

Of course we could bring back the CAB from 1938 that was eliminated in 1978 under de-reg. Then airlines could set monopoly prices on routes awarded to them, pilot could strike ask for more money, the CAB would see this as a cost increases and allow higher prices. Of course back then we had what 1/2? Maybe a 1/3? Of the airline jobs we have now, but who cares at least the senior guys would benefit.

BTW. If anyone has the answer to this, it their duty to start an airline and make it the perfect place to work and then attract all the pilots and put the other airlines out of business.

How do international airlines pay their people more? I think you actually answered your own question. Regulation!!! Let's compare U.S and Canada for a minute. There was an earlier thread on the Regional section comparing pilot pay for Canadian pilots and how great their QOL was. Compare growth between the countries from 1975-2000, Candian growth was 80% while growth in the U.S. was 225% within the same time frame. In Canada prices remained high while the average U.S. traveler enjoyed a decrease in prices. Compare the number of active airlines in Canada vs. the U.S. and you will find growth comes from competition so the only way airline management can control the large fluctuations in profits is fixed prices such as fuel and labor. What is the first thing an Airline tries to do when faced with a downward fluctuation? Ask for employee concessions and give backs.
You can analyze whether the Hub and spoke route system with extensive down time between flights works within todays competitive market, that would be the right question.

 

[OldManPilot]

With the price our military has paid in human life in the Middle East we should be paying next to nothing for oil. We should be able to pay a substantial discount per barrel of oil.

 

[paid4training]

I agree with you but then there's that no blood for oil idea. We had low oil prices after gulf war 1 for ten years. No other president has tried it since.

 

[Varmint]

Let's say your flying a 50 seater RJ...On a full flight for one hour, if every pax was to tip $3 the capt. could get $1.50 of that, the FO $1, and the donkey $.50. That would give a rate of $75 per hour to the CA, $50 per hour to the FO, and $25 per hour to shrek in the back.

Of course this simple analogy does not take into consideration health care costs or contributions to retirement but it does make you realize that just for your basic pay on a full flight at current rates, only $3 of the price of a ticket per hour is going to pay your basic wage.

 

[pilotyip]

Let's say your flying a 50 seater RJ...On a full flight for one hour, if every pax was to tip $3 the capt. could get $1.50 of that, the FO $1, and the donkey $.50. That would give a rate of $75 per hour to the CA, $50 per hour to the FO, and $25 per hour to shrek in the back.

Of course this simple analogy does not take into consideration health care costs or contributions to retirement but it does make you realize that just for your basic pay on a full flight at current rates, only $3 of the price of a ticket per hour is going to pay your basic wage.

who is going to pay the $3?

 

[CX880]

Let's say your flying a 50 seater RJ...On a full flight for one hour, if every pax was to tip $3 the capt. could get $1.50 of that, the FO $1, and the donkey $.50. That would give a rate of $75 per hour to the CA, $50 per hour to the FO, and $25 per hour to shrek in the back.

Of course this simple analogy does not take into consideration health care costs or contributions to retirement but it does make you realize that just for your basic pay on a full flight at current rates, only $3 of the price of a ticket per hour is going to pay your basic wage.

Management is already charging for that 3 it's just that they are keeping the profit for themselves.

 

[pilotyip]

Profit=bad?

Management is already charging for that 3 it's just that they are keeping the profit for themselves.

and there is something wrong with profit? perhaps they should charge another $3 for the crew, let the pax decide if they will pay it?

 

[Amish RakeFight]

and there is something wrong with profit? perhaps they should charge another $3 for the crew, let the pax decide if they will pay it?

Tip jar.

 

[Hamburger]

Supply and Demand.
When a contractor comes to your home to perform a job, you want to pay him as little as possible for the job. If you call around and find out there is anothercontractor who will do the same thing for less, you hire that guy..

Hate to burst your bubble, but I hire the guy that's going to do the best job, get it done on time, is licensed/bonded, has references, etc......I don't mind paying more for his experience, expertise, service, and skill.

The savings from paying less for the above service can then be spent, but not limited to, the following ways: Professional development, education for your children, saving for retirement, rainy-day fund, additional home repairs/additions, paying down mortgage, reducing student loan debt, and...yes..."unnecessary" expenditures to yourself like a vacation or an anniversary gift for your wife.

They can also be spent on bringing someone else in do the job right, fines because the proper permits weren't secured, repairing water damage from the pipe the lowest bidder cut through, replacing the carpet that they walked all over with muddy boots...............

It can't get any more simple than that. I don't know why this is so difficult for our colleagues to understand.

Watch ANY episode of Holmes on Homes and let us know if you want to stick to your simple theories about the benefits of lowest bidder contractors.