What is ACTUAL?

[Thurman Merman]

rule of thumb

If you are flying IFR use the ten percent rule. Every hour of flight, log .1 actual time, unless your down in the trenches a lot then log .2. When you go to get a job and your actual time is above 10 to 20 percent of your total flight time red flags will go up.

 

[ILuvKittyLitter]

No, if you see the stars, you are not controlling the airplane *solely* by reference to the instruments, the stars, while not a horizon, are an outside reference which help in controlling the airplane.





Don't bother. it would be a complete waste of time. His opinon has absolutey no official standing is is completely irelevant. CHances are good that it's wrong anyway.

You have been given the official legal opinon of the FAA already. It seemed pretty clear ot me. Which part of it didn't you understand?

Well as I am sure you are aware of, there is published official and legal interpetations not opinions. I would not ask for his opinion but the official interpetation of that reg. You misinterpeted my posting, I was being sarcastic to a previous post stating that this person logged actual in VFR conditions because there was no visual reference.

 

[ILuvKittyLitter]

Ooooooohhhhhhhh, the interview "board" for a 135 operator....OOOooohhhhh!!!!!.

Well, my logbook contains a fair amount of flight time logged in this manner (how much I don't know). I fly in a place where it really is rural, really rural, as in many of our daily routes go over areas where you don't see a single light for up to an hour. It is *that* deserted. On an overcast night, when you can't see the stars or moon, you've got nothing but the instruments to keep the plane right side up. In those situations I don't have any problem logging it as actual, and I'd have no problem at all looking you in the eye and telling you what the deal was. If *you* have a problem with that, that only means that *you* don't understand the intent of the regulations and that the environment in which I fly is outside of your experience.

If you wish to look down your nose at pilot who flies daily in (not above) some fairly nasty weather with no autopilot, be my guest. It says a lot more about you than it does about me.

The "intent" of the regulations is simple, if you are not IMC you are VFR per the definitions. Just because you can't see anything just means you have to rely more on your instrument skills. I fly busy as well as remote areas at night also. I'm not going to argue about it..you log it the way you want to, I will log it the way I want to which happens to be the way all 63 pilots at my company log it as well as the pilots I associate with at Ameristar, USA Jet, Airnet and the rotor pilots for the 4 or 5 medical outfits we fly with do.

 

[A Squared]

I would not ask for his opinion but the official interpetation of that reg.

Hmmmm, OK, let's look at what you actually posted:

"Our DO is an FAA examiner, I'll get his opinion when I do my type ride next week."

Now, english may be a second language to you, I don't know, but where I cone from "I'll get his opinion" means exactly that; "I'll get his opinion", not "I'll ask him what the official FAA legal interpretation is. Add to that the fact that the officaial FAA legal interpretaiton has already been posted, you make even less sense.

The "intent" of the regulations is simple, if you are not IMC you are VFR per the definitions.

Absolutely not. clearly you are quite confused on the relationship of VFR, IFR, IMC and VMC. It is entirely possible to be flying under instrument flight rules while you are in Visual Meterological Conditions. I owuld venture to say that the majority of airline flight hours are IFR in VMC.

Now, I am extremely skeptical that you have polled all 63 pilots who work for your company, but even if you had, and even if every single one held an opinion contrary to the official interpretation, it would only mean that every single one of them was wrong.

Let me ask you, have you actually *read* the officlal FAA interpretation on the subject? (post #5) I ask because it seems that you have either not read it, or you have read it, but not understood it.

 

[avbug]

If you are flying IFR use the ten percent rule. Every hour of flight, log .1 actual time, unless your down in the trenches a lot then log .2. When you go to get a job and your actual time is above 10 to 20 percent of your total flight time red flags will go up.

Politics. What utter garbage.

The regulation and the interpretations thereof are clear enough.

If you need the instruments to fly...log it. I couldn't care less what percentage of my time is instrument and what isnt', and if an employer cares, I don't care to work for them. Most of my employers, including some recent offers, want me on their doorstep, and want to see how I fly. I had an offer recently that wanted me to fly to their location and get in the aircraft to see what I could do with it. Did they want to see my logbook? Not in the least...a lot of employers have, but these folks quite rightly would have known all they needed to know about me before I ever hit the starter...and flying their airplane would have just confirmed it.

My logged times? Meaningless.

What I can do with the airplane? Life and death critical.

Anything else is just fluff.

If you need instruments to fly, then you're probably in instrument conditions, which for logging purposes have no relationship to legal VFR vs. legal IFR, your level of certification, your parentage, or what you had for dinner last night. If you need instruments to fly the airplane, then it's instrument time. Regardless of the percentage of the flight in which that occurs.

If you have to chew on that, then you probably think too much.

 

[Thurman Merman]

I was speaking from an airline point of view. This was taught to me by an old corporate pilot who used to fly for the airlines as well. His exact words is what I wrote down. I laugh pretty hard when we are flying and an FO breaks out the timer as soon as we enter the clouds. Also, if you go for a job and half your total time is Actual instrument an employer will question if it is accurate as well they should (padding the old logbook).

 

[Slippery Mick]

Is there a legal definition for "actual" or IMC? For purposes of logging flight time the reg reads: "... flight time when the person operates the aircraft solely by reference to instruments under actual or simulated flight conditions." Now what's the legal definition for IMC? Is it in the clouds? Is it whenever operating below VFR minimums? If it's the latter then a VFR private pilot operating under special VFR can legally log actual instrument time if operating in low visibility by reference to the instruments. Furthermore, any aircraft operating under SVFR violates a FAR if the aircraft certification does not permit flight in IMC.

I understood that there really wasn't a formal definition of IMC, but this morning an instructor said IMC was whenever you operate in conditions below VFR minimums, e.g. operating at 10,500 with 4 miles visibility in Class E. Is this another gray area?

Clear skies at FL380 with no moon over the Pacific is actual. That's when Mr. Hyde comes out.

 

[A Squared]

I was speaking from an airline point of view. This was taught to me by an old corporate pilot who used to fly for the airlines as well. .

That only proves that old corporate pilots who used to fly for the airlines sometimes give very bad advice.

Apparently, what you are advocating is logging instrument time when you are not flying on instruments. And you're establishing a very obvious pattern of falsification. lesseee. 1 hour flight, 0.1 instrument, 2 hour flight, 0.2 3 hour flight, 0.3, 4 hour flight, 0.4. If an interviewer looks at your instrument column at all, it will be obviuous that you're falsifying your time. Some days, I'm flying in sunshine and clear blue skies, so I log no instrument time, Other days, I'm on the gauges for the whole flight, so I log just about everything but taxi time as instrument time. Most days are somewhere in between, so I log a realistic estimate of the time I was flying solely by the gauges.

Logging a set percentage of your time as instrument time is bull$hit, and what's more it's very obvious bull$hit. Bad idea

 

[ILuvKittyLitter]

Hmmmm, OK, let's look at what you actually posted:

"Our DO is an FAA examiner, I'll get his opinion when I do my type ride next week."

Now, english may be a second language to you, I don't know, but where I cone from "I'll get his opinion" means exactly that; "I'll get his opinion", not "I'll ask him what the official FAA legal interpretation is. Add to that the fact that the officaial FAA legal interpretaiton has already been posted, you make even less sense.



Absolutely not. clearly you are quite confused on the relationship of VFR, IFR, IMC and VMC. It is entirely possible to be flying under instrument flight rules while you are in Visual Meterological Conditions. I owuld venture to say that the majority of airline flight hours are IFR in VMC.

Now, I am extremely skeptical that you have polled all 63 pilots who work for your company, but even if you had, and even if every single one held an opinion contrary to the official interpretation, it would only mean that every single one of them was wrong.

Let me ask you, have you actually *read* the officlal FAA interpretation on the subject? (post #5) I ask because it seems that you have either not read it, or you have read it, but not understood it.

OK, you are correct in that I need to be more precise in my wording, I totally understand the coorelation between IMC/VMC and VFR/IFR. We use the aircraft log sheets to track our flight times and everybody logs these times the same way, there is no need to poll the other pilots. When I am climbing out at a 20-23 degree deck angle, not a cloud in the sky, I am flying by reference to instruments since I can't see over the nose, this time would count as actual?

You are also correct that in my previous post I said "opinion" that is my fault because I know that his response would cite the interpetation.

Yes, any flight above FL180 is under Instrument rules, no matter what the weather, that doesn't mean you can log all flight time from 180 and up as actual. Flying IFR in VMC is very common at the altitudes. I have to believe that at altitude, hand flying the airplane, most pilots maintain altitude by reference to the instruments, not by the actual horizon, even if you can see it. Probably even more critical with RVSM. Just not going to sell me on the fact I can log actual when I am in VMC because I am looking at the panel.

 

[ILuvKittyLitter]

And I believe this thread originally addressed a "Private Pilot" without an instrument rating logging "actual" in VMC conditions without being on an IFR flight plan. The official interpetation also points out that the pilot is to also record the flight conditions at the time as to justify the logging of actual. I'd really like to know how many professional pilots out there do this. Are all these airline guys logging their time in the flight levels as actual because they are between layers at 350 on a moonless night with the autopilot on and can't see a thing out the window? If a private pilot can log actual because he can't see any decernable features, that must mean we all can. I guess that the interpetation posted in the thread would also allow me to log actual anytime I flip the cockpit light on to read a book on a long haul at night because I can't see crap out the window. Gee, maybe i'm the only one that does that too. Naw, not going to sling mud here. There are definatly 2 sides of the fence on this point and they both think the other is wrong. I think I will just continue to do what I have been doing, logging actual when I am really actual which in my interpetation is when my visibility is impaired by meteorological conditions, not because there is no moon at night.