What is ACTUAL?

[Thurman Merman]

I was speaking from an airline point of view. This was taught to me by an old corporate pilot who used to fly for the airlines as well. His exact words is what I wrote down. I laugh pretty hard when we are flying and an FO breaks out the timer as soon as we enter the clouds. Also, if you go for a job and half your total time is Actual instrument an employer will question if it is accurate as well they should (padding the old logbook).

 

[Slippery Mick]

Is there a legal definition for "actual" or IMC? For purposes of logging flight time the reg reads: "... flight time when the person operates the aircraft solely by reference to instruments under actual or simulated flight conditions." Now what's the legal definition for IMC? Is it in the clouds? Is it whenever operating below VFR minimums? If it's the latter then a VFR private pilot operating under special VFR can legally log actual instrument time if operating in low visibility by reference to the instruments. Furthermore, any aircraft operating under SVFR violates a FAR if the aircraft certification does not permit flight in IMC.

I understood that there really wasn't a formal definition of IMC, but this morning an instructor said IMC was whenever you operate in conditions below VFR minimums, e.g. operating at 10,500 with 4 miles visibility in Class E. Is this another gray area?

Clear skies at FL380 with no moon over the Pacific is actual. That's when Mr. Hyde comes out.

 

[A Squared]

I was speaking from an airline point of view. This was taught to me by an old corporate pilot who used to fly for the airlines as well. .

That only proves that old corporate pilots who used to fly for the airlines sometimes give very bad advice.

Apparently, what you are advocating is logging instrument time when you are not flying on instruments. And you're establishing a very obvious pattern of falsification. lesseee. 1 hour flight, 0.1 instrument, 2 hour flight, 0.2 3 hour flight, 0.3, 4 hour flight, 0.4. If an interviewer looks at your instrument column at all, it will be obviuous that you're falsifying your time. Some days, I'm flying in sunshine and clear blue skies, so I log no instrument time, Other days, I'm on the gauges for the whole flight, so I log just about everything but taxi time as instrument time. Most days are somewhere in between, so I log a realistic estimate of the time I was flying solely by the gauges.

Logging a set percentage of your time as instrument time is bull$hit, and what's more it's very obvious bull$hit. Bad idea

 

[ILuvKittyLitter]

Hmmmm, OK, let's look at what you actually posted:

"Our DO is an FAA examiner, I'll get his opinion when I do my type ride next week."

Now, english may be a second language to you, I don't know, but where I cone from "I'll get his opinion" means exactly that; "I'll get his opinion", not "I'll ask him what the official FAA legal interpretation is. Add to that the fact that the officaial FAA legal interpretaiton has already been posted, you make even less sense.



Absolutely not. clearly you are quite confused on the relationship of VFR, IFR, IMC and VMC. It is entirely possible to be flying under instrument flight rules while you are in Visual Meterological Conditions. I owuld venture to say that the majority of airline flight hours are IFR in VMC.

Now, I am extremely skeptical that you have polled all 63 pilots who work for your company, but even if you had, and even if every single one held an opinion contrary to the official interpretation, it would only mean that every single one of them was wrong.

Let me ask you, have you actually *read* the officlal FAA interpretation on the subject? (post #5) I ask because it seems that you have either not read it, or you have read it, but not understood it.

OK, you are correct in that I need to be more precise in my wording, I totally understand the coorelation between IMC/VMC and VFR/IFR. We use the aircraft log sheets to track our flight times and everybody logs these times the same way, there is no need to poll the other pilots. When I am climbing out at a 20-23 degree deck angle, not a cloud in the sky, I am flying by reference to instruments since I can't see over the nose, this time would count as actual?

You are also correct that in my previous post I said "opinion" that is my fault because I know that his response would cite the interpetation.

Yes, any flight above FL180 is under Instrument rules, no matter what the weather, that doesn't mean you can log all flight time from 180 and up as actual. Flying IFR in VMC is very common at the altitudes. I have to believe that at altitude, hand flying the airplane, most pilots maintain altitude by reference to the instruments, not by the actual horizon, even if you can see it. Probably even more critical with RVSM. Just not going to sell me on the fact I can log actual when I am in VMC because I am looking at the panel.

 

[ILuvKittyLitter]

And I believe this thread originally addressed a "Private Pilot" without an instrument rating logging "actual" in VMC conditions without being on an IFR flight plan. The official interpetation also points out that the pilot is to also record the flight conditions at the time as to justify the logging of actual. I'd really like to know how many professional pilots out there do this. Are all these airline guys logging their time in the flight levels as actual because they are between layers at 350 on a moonless night with the autopilot on and can't see a thing out the window? If a private pilot can log actual because he can't see any decernable features, that must mean we all can. I guess that the interpetation posted in the thread would also allow me to log actual anytime I flip the cockpit light on to read a book on a long haul at night because I can't see crap out the window. Gee, maybe i'm the only one that does that too. Naw, not going to sling mud here. There are definatly 2 sides of the fence on this point and they both think the other is wrong. I think I will just continue to do what I have been doing, logging actual when I am really actual which in my interpetation is when my visibility is impaired by meteorological conditions, not because there is no moon at night.

 

[midlifeflyer]

Just not going to sell me on the fact I can log actual when I am in VMC because I am looking at the panel.

I don't think anyone is. The official interpretation doesn't say that you can log actual in VMC because you feel like looking at the panel or because you weren't taught the basics well enough to hold altitude adequately by outside referencese alone or because you scan the instruments as part of a normal visual cross-check.

It says that you can log actual if and only if you (probably more of an objective typical pilot, rather than "you" personally) =have to= look at the panel to keep control of the airplane because of conditions outside. It has nothing to do with whether you are technically in IMC or VMC.