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What is a whipsaw?

Crash Pad

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What is this phantom tool? I know we all throw around the "whipsaw" coment usually in conjunction with "scabs" who "PFT" and in turn "lower the bar". I would just like an actual definition of the whipsaw in either a carpentry reference or in airline management terms. Ok I have to go back to "Drinking the cool aid".
 

miles otoole

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Crash Pad said:
What is this phantom tool? I know we all throw around the "whipsaw" coment usually in conjunction with "scabs" who "PFT" and in turn "lower the bar". I would just like an actual definition of the whipsaw in either a carpentry reference or in airline management terms. Ok I have to go back to "Drinking the cool aid".

1.To cause to move or alternate rapidly in contrasting directions
2.To victimize, especially in gambling or negotiations
3. To defeat or best in two ways at once
 

FlyingFisherman

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PFT guys aren't scabs. Knuckleheads maybe, but not scabs.

Also, a whipsaw is a saw that two people use to cut down trees. You might want to try the lumberjack forums! In terms of metaphor...think of "double whammy" and that will put you on the right track.
 

Sioux115

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The act of management saying to one entity(Mesa-for example) that if you don't give us the concessions or fly for this amount of compensation we will give it to so-so(freedom-nonunion nonetheless) who will fly it for that amount and you will no longer have a job. The simplesest explanation.
 

Lear70

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*sigh*

Whipsaw, as defined in aviation terms:

A management tool used to keep expectations low during a contract negotiation by using a rival company and growing it while simultaneously threatening stagnation or shrinkage of the negotiating carrier, then reversing the growth/shrinkage strategy with the same two carriers when the OTHER carrier starts negotiations.

Example: Mesaba during negotiations watched as shiny new aircraft were given to Pinnacle while Mesaba's own Avro jet aircraft were threatened with a posted retirement schedule and thereby threatening the livelihood of the majority of its senior pilots and the furlough of the most junior. Mesaba then signs an agreement for nearly identical wages that Pinnacle pilots are already flying under and very few work rule improvements. Agreement ratified by a 10% margin, showing many people disliked it, but just enough feared the alternative to make it pass.

Now, the "whipsaw" goes the other direction: Pinnacle is in negotiations, is watching shiny new aircraft go to Mesaba while Pinnacle pilot's quality of life declines, and eventually jets will be taken away and given to Mesaba with more losses threatened in order to minimize contract expectations and the same "borderline" pass of a sub-standard contract gets voted in (our biggest fear).

This "whipsaw" goes back and forth and back and forth between these two carriers while management laughs all the way to the bank, rather than one carrier "biting the bullet" and actually pulling the trigger on the strike issue, thereby forcing management's hand and ending the whipsaw... one way or the other (either the company caves or the company dies and all the aircraft go to the other carrier while yet another carrier is born years later to start the whipsaw all over again).

Clear as mud?
 
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kmox29

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Lear70 said:
Mesaba then signs an agreement for nearly identical wages that Pinnacle pilots are already flying under and very few work rule improvements.

I am so sick of hearing this crap about Mesaba and our contract. It's not about the pay rate...it's about your W2. God, so many people get so wound up in Section 3, it's stupid.

What're your minimum days off?
How're your training rules?
Do you have 100% trip guarantee?
How about block-or-better?
What's you minimum day pay?
How much 401k matching do you get?

Now, I know that our contract pay rates for the CRJ in YEAR ONE are not record breaking in relation to your contract, but how's the rest? We faced things in our negotiations that you folks (hopefully) will not have to. Was it the best contract? No. Was it pretty good? I think so.

I don't mean to blow up on you, just get sick of hearing 9E people dump on a contract that is in EVERY way better than theirs.
 

Lear70

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kmox29 said:
I am so sick of hearing this crap about Mesaba and our contract. It's not about the pay rate...it's about your W2. God, so many people get so wound up in Section 3, it's stupid.

What're your minimum days off?
How're your training rules?
Do you have 100% trip guarantee?
How about block-or-better?
What's you minimum day pay?
How much 401k matching do you get?

Now, I know that our contract pay rates for the CRJ in YEAR ONE are not record breaking in relation to your contract, but how's the rest? We faced things in our negotiations that you folks (hopefully) will not have to. Was it the best contract? No. Was it pretty good? I think so.

I don't mean to blow up on you, just get sick of hearing 9E people dump on a contract that is in EVERY way better than theirs.
No offense taken, and I don't mean to be demeaning or rude, but I actually went to one of the Mesaba road shows and read your contract. Is it better than ours? Absolutely. Is it good enough for me to sign HERE if PCL management came to us with it. Nope. Not by a long shot.

The W2 difference with your CX, min day, and block or better is about 5-7% above ours... I get cancelled about once every 2 or 3 months, our trip value pay regularly pays me MORE than the actual block 90% of the time, and I very rarely work less than your "min day" rig on ANY given day, not just taken as an average. I've worked the difference using your rules a couple times, it's just NOT the 20% increase that Wychor tried to sell you.

You're absolutely right that you guys were facing some really crappy POSSIBILITIES of aircraft reduction and SOME very REAL furloughs that had already happened. All of that, as I described, are "TACTICS" used with calculated forethought by management and the puppet masters at NWA mainline and will probably be used here as well (hence the term "WHIPSAW"). That was the point I was trying to make.

The main reason I used Mesaba/Pinnacle is that those two airlines are the two that I understand the most about; can't give facts about Mesa/Freedom or Comair/ASA because I didn't follow the contract fights close enough to do so.
 
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kmox29

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I understand what you're trying to say. The 20% that was mentioned was 1st year FO pay. That had to (and did) go up to more reasonable wages. I know that your schedules are flying maximum block...right now. Things slow down. Schedules become unproductive. Growth stops. Life gets stale.

All those improvements made in our contract affect different pilots in different ways. I really wanted to see a split FO rate for different aircraft. We didn't get it and for other reasons, I ended up voting for the contract. I know many others who did not...all with valid reasons. However, in my opinion, overall we had a DECENT contract.

As things change the next two years at 9E, so will your contract wish list. They will keep doing polling up to the last minute and you can ask the union guys about how "priorities" constantly evolve.

I trusted the guys on our negotiating team. We were the first regional contract to be signed after 9/11. We achieved a better contract in every section in the face of impending Comair and Air Wisconson consessions. All the while (as you posted) 9E was being used as a HUGE whipsaw against us. Not to mention multiple furloughs, re-furloughs and Big Sky. It sucked.

I hope you guys don't face what we did. I hope you guys get everything you want. As I mentioned before in many of my posts, I will be walking the picket lines and volunteering in other ways to help you guys out.

Back to the original topic. There is no better example of whipsaw than XJ and 9E. From kicking Express I out of MSP and DTW and showing up in MEM with brand new ARJ, to NWA dumping all Saab flying on XJ and giving 9E 139 CRJ's. It doesn't get any better than that.
 

~~~^~~~

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Whipsaw is EBay in reverse. Instead of buyers bidding something higher and each bidder forcing the other to increase their bid to remain competitive - Whipsaw - is when pilots under bid each other and the flying goes to the lowest bidder. At some point the lowest bidder asks for less than it costs to even suport a family.

Someday that will be very important to you. Flying is nice, but basic food and shelter are must haves and this industry hardly even pays F.O.'s enough to rent an apartment, much less buy a home and save for the future.

Should airlines be able to price their tickets expecting that our wives and parents are going to keep us in houses and cars? How low should this profession go? We already make much less than auto mechanics, plumbers, or electricians - and - they don't have to spend 20 nights a month in a hard hotel bed eating airport fast food 90% of the time. Are we not at least as skilled trade?

Sure, flying the RJ is a hoot - a great job. But you aren't a professional until your first question is, "what does this job pay?"
 

PA-44Typed

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The race to $5.15/hour for pilots. Thanks to……………….



Colgan Air, Express Jet, Trans States Airlines, Boston-Maine Airways, American Eagle, Midwest Connect, Air Wisconsin, ASA, Comair, Chautauqua Airlines, Mesa……..
 

kmox29

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PA-44Typed said:
The race to $5.15/hour for pilots. Thanks to……………….
Colgan Air, Express Jet, Trans States Airlines, Boston-Maine Airways, American Eagle, Midwest Connect, Air Wisconsin, ASA, Comair, Chautauqua Airlines, Mesa……..

Did you forget to log out or are you seriously that dumb.
 

L.Skywalker

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definition of whipsaw Whipsaw

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A kind of narrow ripsaw, tapering from butt to point, with hook teeth and averaging from 5 to 7/ feet in length, used by one or two men.

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To saw with the whipsaw.

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To defeat in, or cause to lose, two different bets at the same turn or in one play, as a player at faro who has made two bets at the same time, one that a card will lose and another that a different card will win; hence, to defeat in spite of every effort.

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A saw for dividing timber lengthwise, usually set in a frame, and worked by two persons; also, a fret saw.
 

CE402

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Crash Pad said:
What is this phantom tool?

Not to make light of your question but I thought it would make a good episode of the Superfriends:

"Oh no guys....it's the Phantom Tool and his deadly Whipsaw....what do we do?? Let's meet at the Hall of Justice to come up with a plan..."

"Form of a Master Executive Council......Shape of a Picket Line.....Quick hurry before it's too late......must...get...there...on....time..."

Signed: CE402 -- Age 9 (mentally)
 

Dash8

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phantom limb? from the venture bros?

or zan on the witness stand
harvey: 'how do you know wonderwoman was taking a bath'
zan: "cause, cause i was the bathwater....'he he hehe, form of...a washcloth' "
 

pilotmyf

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PA-44Typed said:
The race to $5.15/hour for pilots. Thanks to……………….



Colgan Air, Express Jet, Trans States Airlines, Boston-Maine Airways, American Eagle, Midwest Connect, Air Wisconsin, ASA, Comair, Chautauqua Airlines, Mesa……..
Well said D0UCHEBAG, you have the award for the most idiotic post on flightinfo. That is truly an accomplishment!! Maybe you can go to the training message board and impress someone with your knowledge of B727 systems. Once again, bravo!!!!
 
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pilotmyf

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kmox29 said:
Did you forget to log out or are you seriously that dumb.
Probably a toss up!
 
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