What is a "Published segment of an approach"

[Bernoulli]

Question for you guys...When cleared for the approach you can only begin your descent below your last assigned altitude once you are on a published segment of the approach. My qusestion is: what constitutes a "published segment of an approach?" One of my friends says that a "published segment of an approach" only begins once you have reached an IAF. Now most approach plates have feeder routes that lead up to IAF's and they have altitudes listed on them... So are you alowed to descend to those feeder rout altitudes prior to an IAF? hey are published... and they are on the approach plate.

 

[Flechas]

If there is a inimum altitude published for a feeder route (or MEA), and you are clearedfor the approach, you can begin your descent if cleared for the approach. You don't have to wait untill the IAF.

 

[Bernoulli]

Just for the record... I agree with my friend. An approach BEGINS at the IAF, therefore a "published segment of an approach" must be within the IAF. I am throwing this question out there because I think it can easily be misconstrued and I have not been able to find a clear answer in any of my books. Thanks for any comment in advance.

 

[AV8OR]

Technically, your ability to descend without further clearance, comes once you are "cleared for the approach" AND "established".

"Cleared for he approach" - In order for ATC to clear you for that approach, ATC has a criteria that you either be established on a feeder route like you mentioned or that you meet the criteria for shooting that type of approach, like having the traffic ahead, or the runway in sight for a visual, etc. In instrument conditions, you are either on a vector or on a route, That's all there is. And routes are published. Therefore, if you are "established" on a feeder route, you are good to descend to the MEA for the route, once "cleared for the approach". So there's half the key.

"Established" - On a visual, you are on a visually established route, by either following traffic or following established AIM procedures for proceding to the runway. In IMC, you must be on the published track to be established. ATC can't legally give you a "cleared for the approach" call without either giving you a vecor for intercept, (to get you established), or insuring that you have met any other criteria make sure you ARE established. That's the other half of the key.

Bottom line, once "cleared" AND "established", whether on a feeder, or inside the IAF you are good to descend.

Hopefully that's what you were looking for.

Good question by the way.

 

[Bernoulli]

OK... I just read in 5-4-7 of the AIM and I'm totally wrong. Here's what it says:

"The pilot shall....(blah blah blah)...maintain the last assigned altitude unless a different altitude is assigned by ATC, or until the aircraft is established on a segment of a published route or IAP (instrument approach procedure). After the aircraft is so established, published altitudes apply to descent within each succeeding route or approach segment unless a different altitude is assigned by ATC.

So basically if you are cleared for an approach and you are outside of an IAF but you are on a feeder route that is published on your approach plate, you can descend to that feeder route's altitude.

Any further comments to clarify this are much appreciated

 

[Singlecoil]

It isn't just feeder routes, but airways this applies to as well. You can be 100 miles from your destination and you might hear, "Cessna 123C, cleared approach XYZ airport". You now own all the airspace from your current assigned altitude down to and including the MEA, as well as any feeder route that might be handy. This example would be for a pretty remote area but they are out there (Alaska, Montana, Idaho, etc). The only caveat is that once you report leaving an assigned altitude, you would need a clearance if you want to go back up to it for some reason.

 

[Vector4fun]

This example would be for a pretty remote area but they are out there (Alaska, Montana, Idaho, etc). The only caveat is that once you report leaving an assigned altitude, you would need a clearance if you want to go back up to it for some reason.

I think you're describing a Cruise Clearance there. Those are fun to issue for amusement sometimes, if it's slow. You can almost see the [?????]s next to the aircraft's tag on the radar....

 

[Singlecoil]

I actually started writing 'cruise' but changed it to keep things simple. I've heard it put both ways. Sometimes they'll say "cleared approch" without specifying which approach. I'm not sure if they are supposed to do that but it happens.

Extra credit: What if you are dropping off mail in little podunk airports, the controller is tired of talking to you, and s(he) says, "Cessna 123C, cruise 6000 through XYZ airport to LMN airport."

You are on an airway with an MEA of 5000 and a MOCA of 4000 that terminates at a VOR which is an IAF for XYZ. What can you do with that clearance?

 

[Bernoulli]

Extra credit: What if you are dropping off mail in little podunk airports, the controller is tired of talking to you, and s(he) says, "Cessna 123C, cruise 6000 through XYZ airport to LMN airport."

You are on an airway with an MEA of 5000 and a MOCA of 4000 that terminates at a VOR which is an IAF for XYZ. What can you do with that clearance?

A cruise clearance clears you for three things.
1. A block of altitude between What ATC says (6,000) and the MEA (5,000)... so in your example you can fly between 6,000 and 5,000 feet when you want without telling ATC. If you do rport to ATC that you are leaving an altitude you can not go back to that altitude... so keep your options open and your lip butoned.
2. Cleared direct to your destination
3. Cleared for any approach to the airport.

So to answer your bonus question, you can fly between 6,000 and 5,000 until you reach the IAF and then you are expected to shoot the approach.

 

[Singlecoil]

Your answer is correct except for the cleared direct to destination airport. You can't do that automatically under a cruise clearance. What about after you get to XYZ airport? Your clearance was to cruise through XYZ to LMN airport?

 

[Bernoulli]

Your answer is correct except for the cleared direct to destination airport. You can't do that automatically under a cruise clearance. What about after you get to XYZ airport? Your clearance was to cruise through XYZ to LMN airport?

Yeah... Sorry... I meant that a cruise clearance clears you to your destination airport (but not direct to your destination airport).

As far as cruising through XYZ airport to LMN... I would assume that you can fly between 6,000 and 5,000 feet up to XYZ and if the airway stops there and you need to get from XYZ to an IAF for LMN and (now I'm assuming there is no airway to LMN from XYZ) you can then fly a block of airspace from 6,000 to the as low as 1,000 feet above flat terrain and 2,000 feet above mountainous terrain. I'd prbably simply look at the OROCA (Grid MORA) and fly between 6,000 and the OROCA until reaching LMN's IAF... Then I'd commence the approach.

 

[sqwkvfr]

When you get to xyz airport are you within 25MN of LNM airport? If so, I might be inclined to adhere to the MSAs specified on the approach plate until reaching the IAF or a feeder route.

No?

 

[Bernoulli]

When you get to xyz airport are you within 25MN of LNM airport? If so, I might be inclined to adhere to the MSAs specified on the approach plate until reaching the IAF or a feeder route.

No?

Very good point. I would agree with you there.

 

[Green Banana]

White Devil (aka. Singelcoil) is correct about being "Cleared Approch" It happens alot where I fly. It means you can fly whatever approch you want, what ever published IAP route you want. You can also decend to the MEA of the airway you are on at that time!

AIM 5-4-7
d. At times ATC may not specify a particular approach procedure in the clearance, but will state "CLEARED APPROACH." Such clearance indicates that the pilot may execute any one of the authorized IAPs for that airport. This clearance does not constitute approval for the pilot to execute a contact approach or a visual approach.

 

[TonyC]

What is a "Published segment of an approach"
Question for you guys...When cleared for the approach you can only begin your descent below your last assigned altitude once you are on a published segment of the approach. My qusestion is: what constitutes a "published segment of an approach?" One of my friends says that a "published segment of an approach" only begins once you have reached an IAF. Now most approach plates have feeder routes that lead up to IAF's and they have altitudes listed on them... So are you alowed to descend to those feeder rout altitudes prior to an IAF? hey are published... and they are on the approach plate.

If the answers you get are confusing, it's probably because you've asked two distinctly different questions.

1 - What is a "Published segment of an approach"?

2 - ... are you allowed to descend to those feeder rout[e] altitudes prior to an IAF?


You seem to have already answered the first question. The initial segment of an approach begins at an Initial Approach Fix. Sounds like your friend is correct. If you agreed with your friend, I'm assuming you wouldn't have asked the question here, so it sounds like you owe your friend a cold beverage.


The answer to the second question is, "it depends." It would depend on the clearance received. The feeder route is just that - - a feeder route. It is NOT a portion of the approach procedure. If your clearance were, "Maintain X thousand until 'ABC' (ABC being the IAF), cleared YYYYY Runway ZZ Approach", then you could not descend, even if you were on a published Feeder Routing with published course, distance, and altitude information.

It is my understanding that "Maintain X thousand until established on the approach..." would mean exactly the same as above. It is also my understanding that others here disagree with that interpretation. Fortunately, I don't think that distinction is the focus of your attention, and I haven't seen that addressed in this thread so far.

If your clearance is "You're cleared the YYYYY Runway ZZ Approach" you may descend on a feeder routing.

Sounds like your friend might owe you a cold beverage, too.



.

 

[Bernoulli]

I may be shootin out my ass here, but I think there is a big difference between "Cleared approach" and a cruise clearance when still on a victor airway or even a STAR. With a "cleared approach" clearance, if you are not on a published segment or route that is published on the approach plate then you can not vacate your last assigned altitude without telling ATC, whereas in a cruise clearance you can descend or climb within the assigned block of altitude without notifying ATC. Now... from my understanding, once you are on a published segment or route depicted on your approach plate and ATC says cleared approach, then you can descend without advising ATC. I think there is a difference, and if your'e not careful, it could bite ya in the butt. If anyone can verify or rebuff what I just stated it would be much appreciated.

 

[Singlecoil]

White Devil (aka. Singelcoil) is correct about being "Cleared Approch" It happens alot where I fly.

I don't even remember telling you that story?!? I am LOL that you remember it, though.

In my hypothetical, I left out that there was an airway with an MEA of 5000 between XYZ and LMN. I was thinking of Pullman, WA and Lewiston, ID when conceiving this example. Late at night, ATC would clear us to cruise through Pullman to Lewiston at 6000 or 8000. This was in a Dash-8 under Part 121. Basically, you can land, deplane, enplane, take off, and land again at the other airport under the same clearance without having to deal with relaying through FSS until you got to the second airport. It is a seldom used, but handy procedure.

 

[Bernoulli]

In my hypothetical, I left out that there was an airway with an MEA of 5000 between XYZ and LMN. I was thinking of Pullman, WA and Lewiston, ID when conceiving this example. Late at night, ATC would clear us to cruise through Pullman to Lewiston at 6000 or 8000. This was in a Dash-8 under Part 121. Basically, you can land, deplane, enplane, take off, and land again at the other airport under the same clearance without having to deal with relaying through FSS until you got to the second airport. It is a seldom used, but handy procedure.

Wow... Never heard of anything like that before. Are the rules for that type of cruise clearance published anywhere... I mean... how is a pilot supposed to know what that means.

 

[Singlecoil]

I've never seen it in writing anywhere. I learned it from a Captain when I was in the right seat.

 

[Vector4fun]

Wow... Never heard of anything like that before. Are the rules for that type of cruise clearance published anywhere... I mean... how is a pilot supposed to know what that means.

The Pilot/Controller glossary is actually more descriptive than anything else I've seen, including the Controller's Handbook 7110.65...

<B>

CLEARED THROUGH- ATC authorization for an aircraft to make intermediate stops at specified airports without refiling a flight plan while en route to the clearance limit.

<B>CRUISE- Used in an ATC clearance to authorize a pilot to conduct flight at any altitude from the minimum IFR altitude up to and including the altitude specified in the clearance. The pilot may level off at any intermediate altitude within this block of airspace. Climb/descent within the block is to be made at the discretion of the pilot. However, once the pilot starts descent and verbally reports leaving an altitude in the block, he/she may not return to that altitude without additional ATC clearance. Further, it is approval for the pilot to proceed to and make an approach at destination airport and can be used in conjunction with:

a. An airport clearance limit at locations with a standard/special instrument approach procedure. The CFRs require that if an instrument letdown to an airport is necessary, the pilot shall make the letdown in accordance with a standard/special instrument approach procedure for that airport, or



b. An airport clearance limit at locations that are within/below/outside controlled airspace and without a standard/special instrument approach procedure. Such a clearance is NOT AUTHORIZATION for the pilot to descend under IFR conditions below the applicable minimum IFR altitude nor does it imply that ATC is exercising control over aircraft in Class G airspace; however, it provides a means for the aircraft to proceed to destination airport, descend, and land in accordance with applicable CFRs governing VFR flight operations. Also, this provides search and rescue protection until such time as the IFR flight plan is closed.



​

From the FAA 7110.65:

4-2-6. THROUGH CLEARANCES

You may clear an aircraft through intermediate stops.


PHRASEOLOGY-
CLEARED THROUGH (airport) TO (fix).

That's it.</B>

 

[ifleyelearz]

If in doubt, just query the controller right?

 

[GravityHater]

I need a practical example of a cruise clearance.

I take off and sometime after, while at 3000', I ask for and get "Cleared Kxyz airport, Cruise 9 thousand". The MEA is 2000' for the entire airway route to the FAF.

So is it true that
I can climb up to 9000'
I can descend to 2000'
at any point in the flight up to the FAF without making a peep.
I can wander up and down to any altitude I want. Over the hour flight the controller can look at his display and see me at '72', '33', '90', '51' and he will be happy, not say a word, not hear from me.

Is this right so far, or do I have to stay at appropriate ifr altitudes at least? If so, change the above to "the controller can look at his display and see me at '70', '50', '30', and he will be happy, not say a word, not hear from me."

Is the part about 'not reporting' correct?

NOW, if I report leaving an altitude and descending, I MUST get prior approval before climbing back up to that altitude. So if I am at 7000, and report "vacating 7000" then I can descend as far as I want as long as I do not return to 7000'. I can descend all the way to 3000 and then climb back up to 5000' only.

 

[Singlecoil]

I think you've got it gravityhater. You don't need to fly cardinal altitudes either. You can do what you must to avoid weather or ice and treat it like a block of altitude.