What does JO think of 50 seat RJs? Take a look at a quote....

[Metro752]

I'm scared of single engine recips.

 

[johnsonrod]

I fly 50-seat ERJs and even I realize that the economics don't work. That's why I hope to be out of the regional biz the first chance I get with the recovery... 50 seaters just don't make money unless they are used on non-competitive, premium pricing routes (not many of those left).

 

[GRAAB HIRBOUBI]

We cannot control what Republic does, since it is under a seperate certificate. What they use on the "Republic" side is up to them (E190s, A318s). Delta works with them under the "Shuttle Craft " certificate. They cannot use the "Brickyard" callsign (Republic certificate again) for DL. We already signed an agreement well before any of the recent mergers took place, and only for lift under the Shuttlecraft certificate. They could buy another one (certificate) and use A380s--and there is nothing we can do. If one of those E190s or A318/19s is used under the Delta banner, then we have a case to stop them. I don't like seeing those larger planes used with lower payscales, but that is something those pilots need to look at with their union negotiators. Let's hope it is not the future of regionals---lower pay and larger planes. We are looking to tighten scope during our next negotiations for sure, and have just recently elected people in the ATL LEC to do it.


Bye Bye---General Lee

General,
I appreciate the clear non-attacking response. I hope that scope is tightened and that there is a place for me when the dust settles.

Just a bit of history - Mesaba under the Swenson(?) Brothers ownership bought a little charter company in Orlando called AirTran. They had 3 or 6 737's that flew no where near MSP or NWA hubs that I know of.

Within a week, NWA came to Mesaba and offered to sue/cancel the ASA because they were not going to have a subcontractor use their money in this fashion. Mesaba was a different company. AirTran was a different certificate. All the reasons you described in your great response. And NWA came in and said "Get rid of them". The Swenson Bro's were forced to sell Mesaba and went to Orlando where they eventually sold the certificate to ValueJet.

So my original question about the EMB190's and A318's isn't without precedent.

People talk about how tough life is under Delta. But I know NWA would have never signed agreements like they did with Skywest and ASA for 80% RJ capacity out of a hub. NWA would never have given up that much control.

We are losing SAAB's which just baffles me. But to anybody at Mesaba longer than 5 years, it's just another beating.

Good Afternoon

 

[curtaindriver]

We cannot control what Republic does, since it is under a seperate certificate. What they use on the "Republic" side is up to them (E190s, A318s). Delta works with them under the "Shuttle Craft " certificate. They cannot use the "Brickyard" callsign (Republic certificate again) for DL. We already signed an agreement well before any of the recent mergers took place, and only for lift under the Shuttlecraft certificate. They could buy another one (certificate) and use A380s--and there is nothing we can do. If one of those E190s or A318/19s is used under the Delta banner, then we have a case to stop them. I don't like seeing those larger planes used with lower payscales, but that is something those pilots need to look at with their union negotiators. Let's hope it is not the future of regionals---lower pay and larger planes. We are looking to tighten scope during our next negotiations for sure, and have just recently elected people in the ATL LEC to do it.


Bye Bye---General Lee

General, with intellectual posts like this one......you could garnish a lot of respect on this forum and in the community. I hope you keep it up.....most of us appreciate your inside info and opinions on airline business.....it's the other sh%t we can't stand. Not that you care anyway.

CD

 

[curtaindriver]

General,
I appreciate the clear non-attacking response. I hope that scope is tightened and that there is a place for me when the dust settles.

Just a bit of history - Mesaba under the Swenson(?) Brothers ownership bought a little charter company in Orlando called AirTran. They had 3 or 6 737's that flew no where near MSP or NWA hubs that I know of.

Within a week, NWA came to Mesaba and offered to sue/cancel the ASA because they were not going to have a subcontractor use their money in this fashion. Mesaba was a different company. AirTran was a different certificate. All the reasons you described in your great response. And NWA came in and said "Get rid of them". The Swenson Bro's were forced to sell Mesaba and went to Orlando where they eventually sold the certificate to ValueJet.

So my original question about the EMB190's and A318's isn't without precedent.

People talk about how tough life is under Delta. But I know NWA would have never signed agreements like they did with Skywest and ASA for 80% RJ capacity out of a hub. NWA would never have given up that much control.

We are losing SAAB's which just baffles me. But to anybody at Mesaba longer than 5 years, it's just another beating.

Good Afternoon

Definitely great points to consider........nice job drawing parallels with Valujet..........Delta should consider this history as well. This RAH stuff going on is suspect, to say the least.

CD

 

[General Lee]

General, with intellectual posts like this one......you could garnish a lot of respect on this forum and in the community. I hope you keep it up.....most of us appreciate your inside info and opinions on airline business.....it's the other sh%t we can't stand. Not that you care anyway.

CD

Look, I do care, but sometimes I like to stir the pot a bit. I have a serious side and a careless side, and sometimes the latter appears. There are some on this board that deserve a slap, and others that just want opinions and insight. I hope to provide both. Again, I do care.


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[General Lee]

General,
I appreciate the clear non-attacking response. I hope that scope is tightened and that there is a place for me when the dust settles.

Just a bit of history - Mesaba under the Swenson(?) Brothers ownership bought a little charter company in Orlando called AirTran. They had 3 or 6 737's that flew no where near MSP or NWA hubs that I know of.

Within a week, NWA came to Mesaba and offered to sue/cancel the ASA because they were not going to have a subcontractor use their money in this fashion. Mesaba was a different company. AirTran was a different certificate. All the reasons you described in your great response. And NWA came in and said "Get rid of them". The Swenson Bro's were forced to sell Mesaba and went to Orlando where they eventually sold the certificate to ValueJet.

So my original question about the EMB190's and A318's isn't without precedent.

People talk about how tough life is under Delta. But I know NWA would have never signed agreements like they did with Skywest and ASA for 80% RJ capacity out of a hub. NWA would never have given up that much control.

We are losing SAAB's which just baffles me. But to anybody at Mesaba longer than 5 years, it's just another beating.

Good Afternoon

Not all of my posts are confrontational. I enjoy a good debate and prefer not to slam. Again, I have nothing against most RJ pilots (some on here need a slap or two), and hope that ALL of us do better with pay and people move up and onward towards financial stability. I do. There are people that are lazy and want more at their level, even though it will hurt the industry, all because he/she doesn't want to leave and "start over", and prefers to keep his/her 4 weeks of Summer vacation in MYR. Those people are my targets.

I remember the original Air Tran very well. They flew 737s out of MCO, and the went as far West as San Antonio. It was under a seperate certificate, and never competed against NWA directly. After the Valuejet crash in MIA, that company needed to hide it's identity, and they bought the smaller Air Tran and transformed themselves into a totally different airline, and have done well ever since. I think we do have to watch these smaller carriers (like SunCountry), since they can eventually evolve into larger competitors. Scope is very important, and the guys we just elected here in ATL are very aware of that, and ran on that premise. They will be held accountable if they slip and give in---and it is doubtful that this group will. Also, we now have the "cobras" from NWA on our side, which should give us some "backbone" when it comes to any potential work action.

As far as how much control Delta has given to regionals at our hubs, I think after the Comair strike Delta has deverisfied a lot more. Not all of the flights go to one carrier, and there is a good mix out there. I have seen Mesaba at SLC and JFK. I have seen SkyWest at ATL and MSP. I think we should keep it that way. What we want is for Delta to do better, grow, and hire more of you. That is good for you and me.

As to why DL is giving up on Saabs, I don't know. Remember, our leaders were the NWA leaders, so they know all about Mesaba and the intra upper Midwest stuff. This is not new to them. Maybe it is not worth it, the EAS money.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[BigLebowski]

Get over yourself. I don't like RJs, not RJ pilots. I think you need a waaaaaaaaambulence.


Bye Bye--General Lee

you gotta admit, that was funny.

 

[JumpersAway]

I never said I wanted people to lose their jobs. There will always be people flying in the back of planes, and that number is supposed to climb (if we can get out of a recession). I just want there to be MORE mainline planes, which is better for EVERYONE. These new rest rules may have a way of starting that process, since it will be more restrictive on regionals and make it more costly, which may entice Majors to start hiring more to keep it all inhouse. Some crazy numbers have been floating around the training house here in ATL, speculating on what those proposed rules could do to DL. I have heard that we could be a few hundred or more pilots SHORT. That may be pushing it, and that could change of course.

Regardless, JO actually stated in this article something that a lot of us have known, and a lot of us don't want to know, is that the 50 seater, in this economy, is not efficient. Route finding is one thing, going up against LCCs with 50 seaters is another.

Bye Bye--General Lee

General- frankly, I hope you are right. I, like many others, am stuck at a regional carrier because there aren't any other options out there. I think the RJ is a plague, that shouldn't have been let off the hook (mainline list) to grow as pervasively as it has. However, there will always be a niche market for these aircraft- in one form or another. Where they go however, depends on the teamwork of the professionals that do this business. Pilots need to work togeather to yank the wheel in the direction we (mainline pilots and regional pilots) desire- higher wages and better schedules.

However, look at JO's situation. He is on the leading edge of the 50 seat cuts, because his operation is run so poorly. His only markets kept are the 70/90 seat markets. Naturally, he's going to try and buff the turd with just such rhetoric. If he can't sell 50's, he going to try and cross sell 70's and 90's. This fits in line with his search for financing to put 70's on line with United. He's running a sales gig, but I don't think it will work in the long term for Mesa. They're on the gallows, and JO know's it........

 

[General Lee]

General- frankly, I hope you are right. I, like many others, am stuck at a regional carrier because there aren't any other options out there. I think the RJ is a plague, that shouldn't have been let off the hook (mainline list) to grow as pervasively as it has. However, there will always be a niche market for these aircraft- in one form or another. Where they go however, depends on the teamwork of the professionals that do this business. Pilots need to work togeather to yank the wheel in the direction we (mainline pilots and regional pilots) desire- higher wages and better schedules.

However, look at JO's situation. He is on the leading edge of the 50 seat cuts, because his operation is run so poorly. His only markets kept are the 70/90 seat markets. Naturally, he's going to try and buff the turd with just such rhetoric. If he can't sell 50's, he going to try and cross sell 70's and 90's. This fits in line with his search for financing to put 70's on line with United. He's running a sales gig, but I don't think it will work in the long term for Mesa. They're on the gallows, and JO know's it........

I think you are right, RJs will likely be around for a long time, but in time they will go to bottom feeders. Just like the BE1900 was the plane of the future a decade ago, flying pax at Expressjet and even Mesa when it was strong, eventually went to the boneyard, and now only Great Lakes and Gulfstream are flying them--mainly for EAS money to small towns.

Some airlines have NO choice, like Expressjet now. They never got larger RJs, and have major problems as those 50 seaters become more and more inefficient. Only United is looking for 50 seat replacement feed, and Mesa is now considered the bottom of the 50 seat bunch. Luckily for them they have some larger RJs they can market, but their 50 seaters are toast.

We at the Majors have to watch out for scope---those larger RJs will become more and more available, and we have to stay strong and keep them out----which will mean more mainline jobs overall---and that is what we should all strive for. I am sure there are some people (like Joe Merchant) who love their seniority and that 4 week Summer vacation at MYR, and they won't want to leave their situation. For the rest out there, there are better pastures to graze on.


Bye Bye--General Lee