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What decreases VMC

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Checks said:
I stand corrected about the max gross weight, thank you.

I would still take off light and cold.

Here is another question for you guys,

When doing engine failures I have always done:

Mix, Prop, Throttle, Id, Feather, Gear Up, Flaps Up, Secure

I heard an instructor tell a guy Flaps Up then Gear Up. Was I taught wrong?

Where I work, the SEMI checklist for engine failure above Vr - Takeoff Continued is as follows:

Directional Control - Maintain
Throttles - Full Forward
Props - Full Forward
Mixtures - Full Rich
Fuel Selectors - On
Flaps - Retract
Gear - Retract
Fuel Pumps - On
Inop Engine - Identify (verify)
Inop Throttle - Idle
Inop Prop - Fx
Inop Mix - ICO
Bank - 2-3°
Airspeed - 88 KIAS.

Why this sequence? It's gets all possible power in, then removes all possible drag (incidentally, we NEVER take off with flaps in the SEMI: Flaps 25 is almost the same as lowering the gear), then secures the bad engine. Another nice thing is it makes for a nice flow pattern. For those unfamiliar with the PA44, we call it the softball pitch or bowling ball flow.

For engine failure in flight - speed above Vmca, the checklist is as follows:

Inop engine - Identify (verify)
Operative engine - Power as req.
Airspeed - >= 88 KIAS

Why this? You've set up the best-case scenario for climb/descent performance, short of shutting stuff down. The non-memory checklist then specifies all troublshooting items:

Fuel selector - On
Carb Q - On
Mix - Rich
Fuel Pump - On
Fuel qty - Check
Oil P/T: Check
Mags: Check
Carb Q: As req.

Again, this sequence makes for a nice flow pattern. If the engine is truly gone, then you proceed to securing (throttle/prop/mix, in that order).
 
I don't think you should be wasting time with the fuel selectors and fuel pumps if you have an engine failure at low altitude. I also think putting the throttles fwd first doesn't help if the mixture is too lean for the engine to run. Also, putting a/s last on the checklist is a bad move, IMO. We all know that a/s is a very high priority with an engine failure in any twin. You may have already hit the ground by the time you feather.

Heading
Pitch attitude(airspeed)
Mix
Props
Throttles
Flaps(most drag)
Gear
Identify
Verify
Decide(feather or restart)

This is the way I have been trained and, much more importantly, the way the POH says to do it for the PA44. If you have altitude, performance, time, oil pressure on the dead engine, you may opt for the restart. Then you can start with the fuel selectors and run through your flow. No point in wasting time with these things if you're dropping like a rock at low alt or your engine has lost oil pressure...it's not going to restart no matter how much fuel you pump into it.
 
All your points are valid. However, there are a few things we teach that aren't on the checklist. First, we all know that airspeed and directional control are what keep you alive in a twin. As such, "pitch for 88" is always the mantra for an engine failure close to the ground. It's last on the list only as a reminder, in case it slipped while completing the other items. We also set the FD before each takeoff to the approximate SE angle to help maintian blue line. The reasons the selctors and pumps are on there is that the only times we've *ever* had real engine failures here is when the selectors were in the wrong position or the EDPs failed. Besides, it takes an extra half-second to slide your fingers across them in between the other stuff you're moving. As for the mixture, even if the bad engine sputters more when the throttle goes up, again, it takes a fraction of second to move from the throttle to the mixture, even with the props in between. You're almost doing everything at once whether you go left-to-right or right-to-left. Heck, you could just pretend it's an Antonov and move everything up at once. The end's the same.

Finally, you made mention of the importance of using the POH checklist. I won't disagree. However, our checklists are not something we cooked up overnight and just started using. Each one has been seen and approved by the FAA. As such, if you don't use either our list or the POH list, you get busted for not completing the appropriate checklist. But if you use ours, it holds the same weight as the POH version in the local inspector's eyes.
 
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I wont argue that warmer then standard temps/ high density altitudes and a heavy airplane lower vmc(at least on the drawing board)
1) a heavier airplane is will resist vmc longer/ is harder to displace
2) the 5 degree bank into the good engine is taking advantage of horizontal component of lift to counteract the vmc moment- hence the heavier the airplane the more lift or more horizontal lift being produced.

Catch 22
In real life you lose an engine/ obstacles are getting much bigger in the windshield.... I know for sure I would prefer a light airplane because as long as I fly it correctly vmc will not be a factor and we will climb.

ON THE OTHER hand the heavey plane will have a lower vmc but... correct me if Im wrong but at the same airspeed a heavier airplane will have a higher angle of attack.. which in turn causes more P- factor and more asymetrical thrust which seems to cancelout any benefit of being heavey.
 
It is kind of a catch 22, but I figure that with my policy of not flying the Duchess below blue line under any normal operation, even at light weights I won't be anywhere near Vmc. Therefore I'd rather take the lower weight. I'd imagine that I'd have to think about it some more if I were flying a plane with a higher Vmc.
 
Just was reading through the post and a ways back 172driver mentioned a list of thangs that lowered Vmc, and flaps down was one of them. Correct me if i am wrong but i always thought that extended flaps raise Vmc----extending the flaps increase the lift on the operating engine due to the accelerated slipstream, which increases the yawing and rolling tendency that must be compensated by the downward deflection of the aileron on the dead engine side. further adding more yaw and drag that must be compensated with more rudder.

Also on engine out procedures i was always taught:
Control: pitch and bank
Power: throttles, props, mixtures
Drag: Flaps and Gear (no particular order)
Identify: dead foot dead engine
Verifiy: verifiy dead engine with the trottle

For that light and cool or hot and heavy? Nice question, but what is my field elevation.
 
SigTau,

Flaps increase keel effect, stabilizing the yawing tendency, thus lowering Vmc. Vmc is not about roll which is what your theory seems to imply. I guess you could just as easily argue that the accelerated slipstream on the operating engine hits the flap. producing more drag, yawing the aircraft in that direction.
 
SigTauPilot said:
Just was reading through the post and a ways back 172driver mentioned a list of thangs that lowered Vmc, and flaps down was one of them. Correct me if i am wrong but i always thought that extended flaps raise Vmc----extending the flaps increase the lift on the operating engine due to the accelerated slipstream, which increases the yawing and rolling tendency that must be compensated by the downward deflection of the aileron on the dead engine side. further adding more yaw and drag that must be compensated with more rudder.

This one doesn't seem to die. Truth is it depends on the airplane. In some (e.g., C310), flaps increase Vmca, in some, they lower it.

(Insert comment about the difference between Vmca and Vmc here.)
 
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If you lose an engine, light and cold is better:

Better climb performance
-You have a better chance of not being forced to land

Less distance is required for takeoff AND landing
-You have a better chance of surviving a forced landing

True airspeeds will be lower due to higher air density
-If you do hit something, you will hit at a lower speed

K.E.=1/2 m v^2

The kinetic energy you need to dissipate when crashing varies with mass and the square of velocity.

If you are heavy in less dense air, you are more likely to inadvertantly pitch up and slow below Vmc because the ground will be rushing up toward you!
 
Booker,

You've said twice now that flaps affect Vmca in different ways for different aircraft. Can you support that argument with an explanation?
 
When I took my MEL ride a while back the DE nearly had a heart attack when we were doing a single engine go around and I retracted the gear before the flaps he said bring the flaps up first because "you may actually touchdown on the gear before you get to blue line and can begin climbing."
 
172driver said:
Booker,

You've said twice now that flaps affect Vmca in different ways for different aircraft. Can you support that argument with an explanation?

None of the aerodynamic explanations I have heard come from manufacturers or the FAA, so I opt not to offer them. However, I can cite examples of airplanes in which Vmca increases when the flaps are lowered (310, like I already mentioned, SF34, Twin Commander), as well as airplanes in which Vmca decreases as the flaps are lowered, which I will agree is likely most twins.

All this aside, I'd like to know where it is stated in official documents what effect flaps have on Vmca.
 
DIRT,
He was correct for not only the reason you mentioned but because the last notch of flaps is generally a much bigger drag producer than the gear. Remember that good ole drag demo? There is usually a reason for the procedures being published in the order they are in the POH which is why I think it's strange that Booker's school changes it around so much on their published checklist. Not that I think his way is any better or worse...just nonstandard. What school is it if you don't mind Booker? Just curious.

Booker,
Just got your post. You can cite unofficial sources if you like, I don't mind. Come to think of it....what are the FAA approved sources for multi stuff? Here's the only one I have, though I don't know if you consider it 'official':

ASA Multi-Engine Oral Exam Guide p. 2-4

"It is generally accepted that Vmc will be slightly lower with flaps extended. Extended flaps will increase both drag and lift. The drag produced by the extended flap on the operative engine side will tend to oppose the yawing motion of that engine..."
 
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172,

The application of flaps is definitely aircraft specific. In airplanes that lose rudder authority with flap application, Vmca increases with application of flaps. This is often the case in aircraft with split flaps, due to the large airflow disruption with flaps extended. Some midwing or high wing aircraft will experience the same thing with flap extention.

If you study out the intent of determining Vmc, you'll find that it's predicated on a takeoff condition, or in other words, the most critical time an engine can fail. At no other time will the aircraft be exposed to as much difficulty and risk as during a takeoff. Hence, power is set for takeoff, flaps are set for takeoff, the aircraft is loaded to the most unfavorable condition. This doesn't at all mean the condition which will produce the highest Vmca...it means the condition most unfavorable for takeoff, and for losing an engien during takeoff (are there any favorable conditions for losing an engine on takeoff...other than being in a simulator??).

When considering published Vmc, many pilots and instructors erroneously assume that it signifies the highest airspeed at which directional control may no longer be maintained during critical engine loss. This isn't so. Vmca may certainly be higher than published Vmc, and it may also be lower.

What does ice do to Vmca? That's the sixty four dollar question, isn't it? The short answer is that it depends. There is no definitive. Icing which reduces rudder authority will mean less rudder is there to counteract assymetrical thrust. Vmca increases. Propeller icing decreases prop efficiency, meaning Vmca decreases. The efficacy and availability of prop deice, boots, etc, all make a difference, as does the symmetry of ice shedding/buildup, and even the type of icing.

As for when to bring up flaps or gear...don't bank on a proceedure because you were taught that way. Bad choice.

Some airplanes are best with the gear coming up first, others flaps first. Some involve flaps part way, and then gear, then the rest of the flaps. Look at the aircraft systems. An open center system with big gear means that only one object is coming up at a time, and the gear may take a long time. It may be a high drag item, while large fowler flaps may be reducing stall speed significantly. Soloution? Gear gets started up early.

In either case, never be in too big a hurry to move anything. An engine failure doesn't require lightening reflexes, and one may do well to follow standard abnormal/emergency protocal when dealing with one. Step one; sit on your hands for ten seconds and think about the situation. Then act; slowly deliberately, and one step at a time. Don't rush. Speed kills. Don't go throwing gear and flap levers; take your time. Get your airspeed, get control, then navigate, then talk, then begin adjusting and moving.

The important thing is to know your airplane. Each airplane is different. Even the same airplane may require a varied technique depending on the phase of flight. A slightly ridiculous example would be caging one on takeoff. The hapless student immediately deploys 50% flaps. The instructor warbles helplessly "What are you doing?!?" The student replies that he understands that as soon as an engine quits, one always goes to 50% flaps.

Of course, the student was meant to retract the flaps to 50%, not add them...but obeying a hard rule without understanding the airpane and the circumstances can be costly.

Consider your systems. Perhaps flaps are electrical, but gear is hydraulic. You just lost an engine, and half or possibly all of your hydraulic capability. What to do? If it's half, your gear may be operating at half speed. This being the case, perhaps you want to get it started up early; it will take longer. You won't be overburdening the system because the flaps are electrical, and these can be brought up simultaneously. Consider your options and work accordingly. It's different for each airplane, and each circumstance.

The most critical thing to know about decreasing Vmca is the most obvious, and it hasn't been mentioned yet...though I know darn well every poster understands it by heart. Pull back the good engine. That will decrease Vmca by all you need. Obviously it also decreases climb performance, and therein lies the crux of minimum control speed single engine flight. This is why gross weight is most unfavorable, even though a lighter weight will result in a higher Vmca.

That emergency landing will be a whole lot easier if it's quiet so you can concentrate, and if you're not spinning uncontrollably. Pulling back the "good" engine accomplishes this quite nicely, should the need arise.
 
Reduce power or thrust on the operating engine, reduce it all the way and VMC becomes is not a factor anymore. A curve ball curves only because the vector force of the throw decreases and lets the vector force of the low pressure on the spinning ball move the ball in the direction of the vector. Same things applies to VMC. Reduce the thrust vector to maintain control, especially with a Lear during a V1 cut if things become hairy.
 

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