What are some of the better Piper models?

[squale]

I am looking at used Pipers but really don't understand the whole model naming, such as PA28-140, PA28-150, etc. then there are PA22, PA23, PA24, PA25, PA30, PA31, PA32, etc

And each PA## has it seems all different versions of it or something, not really sure how this all works with Pipers..

But anyhow, what are some of the better year and models of Pipers to buy used for under 50K?

 

[squale]

What do you think are the best used planes, most for your money, most reliable, etc. in the Piper line... I see there are Warriors, Dakota's, Cherokee's, Arrow's, Archer's just alone in the PA28 line...

Then I see Navajo, Cheyenne, Chieftain, Saratoga, Seneca, etc, etc... arrgggg my head is spinning...

why did Piper make so many differently named aircraft? lol

 

[paulsalem]

I dont' like the way pipers fly, although I've only flown Archers, Warriors and an Arrow.

Go with a Cessna 150 or 152 if your just going to be doing flight training.

 

[hydroflyer]

What exactly are you looking for in the airplane? Is this to be used for flight training? If you are looking at under 50K, a Cherokee 140 (PA28-140) may be a good choice. Those are easy to fly, and can be used as an instrument trainer.

If you are looking for most for your money, then keep the planes simple and probably stick with the PA28 series. With so many of them in the air, support and maintenance should be easier to find.

As was stated before, the PAXX designation tells you the basic airframe design of the plane. Don't bother memorizing them, I still don't know what they all mean, and just because one number is bigger than another PA44 vs PA34, does not mean it is a bigger airplane. With the PA28 series, the most popular cherokee series, the dashed number indicates hp and whether it ends in a "0" or a "1" tells the type of wing. A cherokee "PA28-150" has a 150 hp engine with the old "hershey bar" type wing. That is a shorter wingspan, thick airfoil and when viewed from below, resembles a hershey candy bar. When the designation goes to a "151", then you still have the 150 hp, but the wingspan is increased, and the wing tapers to a smaller wingtip for increased performance. Check www.airliners.net to see all of the different varieties and see what I mean. I hope this wasn't too confusing.

 

[FN FAL]

I am looking at used Pipers but really don't understand the whole model naming, such as PA28-140, PA28-150, etc. then there are PA22, PA23, PA24, PA25, PA30, PA31, PA32, etc

And each PA## has it seems all different versions of it or something, not really sure how this all works with Pipers..

But anyhow, what are some of the better year and models of Pipers to buy used for under 50K?

It might help if you can get ahold of that model chart poster piper has. I have seen them around but I don't know where to get one. Maybe piper or sporty's has one for sale. It kind of shows the models and linage in a big poster format with pictures. To me, it seemed to take the mystery out of their product line.

I liked piper tomahawks, aztecs, warriors, seneca II and III's and the navajo. My most favorite rental piper was the Cherokee six with the 260 HP engine. It's a tank and it will fly 6 up and lots of fuel. The forward and aft cargo areas are nice, because you have options for balancing out the load on trips.

There's a guy at the FT Atkinson airport that bought an old Ameriflight Lance for 25,000 bucks. It has an engine at TBO, but I would not feel unsafe about borrowing the plane from the guy. It's a little dinged looking after being repaired following a gear up. Also, there is some sheet metal work that's been done around the rear cargo door, probably caused by fork lift rash, but I'd fly it for fun. The guy is re-doing the interior and plans on flying it for a while past TBO.

 

[squale]

okay great thanks for the help.. so when they say PA28, that means the "Cherokee Line" and within the PA28 you can have different flavors of the Cherokee, such as the Warrior, Arrow, Archer right?

oh and what is the comparable piper to a Cessna 150/152/172 ?

Do you usually get more value and performance for your money in a Cessna versus a Piper?

It seems around my in NJ, that most people who get their own plane want to go with a low wing piper versus a Cessna.. almost like the Piper is a cooler status thing over a Cessna. Then the really rich guys always just need a Bonaza and nothing else.. you don't see many doctors flying without that V-tail around here, lol

I want a plane to finish up my PPL training in, which I have about 15 hours to go, got all my requirements done except for my solo XC's. Oh yeah, I have been doing all my training in a C-172N or P models...
Then I want to own this plane after training so I can fly more often (like at least 1 or 2 hours a week) and keep my costs down. I figure if I rent at $85 an hour and do on average like 6-8 hours per month I will come out saving money owning my own plane (I hope) and I will have the freedom to fly the plane when and where for as long as I want. Just don't know whether a Piper or Cessna is the better plane to own..

 

[Vector4fun]

Squale,

I doubt you'll actually "save" any money by owning a plane vs renting 6-8 hours/month. Not after you figure insurance and maintenance and hanger. If you flew more perhaps. Nevertheless, owning your own plane is nice since you know what it is and was in terms of condition, and you fly when you want, how you want, and it's the same plane. If you want some serious, quality advice on Cessnas, join the Cessna Pilot's association, and peruse their web site and ask worthwhile questions for a while before buying. This is not like buying a used car.

The Piper series numbers are roughly chronological. The PA11 came out before the PA14-16-18-20-22, etc.

Cherokees are good airplanes for some missions, Cessnas are a bit better for some. The best airplane for the limited mission details you've provided and for < $50K is the best equipped and cared-for one that meets 90% of your mission requirements. And with your limited experience, you should start with a 2-4 place fixed-gear model, unless you like paying out the nose to an insurance company. Will you have occasion to use 3-4 seats? Will you want to take it on X-countries of more than a few hundred miles after earning your Private? Are you going to keep this airplane for a few years, or do you figure to trade up in two? Are you planning to do your instrument training in this aircraft?

Spend a week really thinking about what you realisticly want and need to do with the aircraft, post that, and some of these folks can give you a more informed answer.

(And some more will tell ya to buy something totally inappropriate and impractical anyway...

 

[FN FAL]

I doubt you'll actually "save" any money by owning a plane vs renting 6-8 hours/month. Not after you figure insurance and maintenance and hanger.

You can say that again.

Cherokees are good airplanes for some missions, Cessnas are a bit better for some.

Try flying skydivers in a Seneca once...mission suitability takes on a whole new meaning.

 

[Goose Egg]

I'm going to vote for the Super Cub.

-Goose

 

[WMUSIGPI]

I got one of the "lineage posters" from the Piper factory back when they still allowed tours (BTHD) You could try their website and contact them to try to order one. As far as the naming being "goofy" Piper was part American Indian. Thats why most of the aircraft names are named after various Indian tribes.

 

[TDTURBO]

It's hard to go wrong with a PA-28, very easy to fly, almost too easy. Get a good pre-buy or annual and check for corrosion, where the plane was based,ie; salt water, if it was hangered and if it flew regularly. Try to find one with a run out engine in good shape, get it OH after a few hundred hrs if eveything checks out.

That way you know what you got instaed of a shade tree to tolernace engine rebuild.

Good luck!

Rule one, if you have 50K you will need 50% more for everything else, so plan on 75 if you want to fly the 50K airplane.

 

[jetdriven]

Definately dont add any value to an engine that is over 12 yeas old or within 2-300 hours of TBO. If it poops on you time for an immediate overhaul.

Budget at least a couple thousand right off to the the plane up to your airworthiness standards. I personally dont like wire nuts under the panel and bad mic jacks, crazed windows, torn up glareshields, etc.

 

[Traumahawk]

Best piper model?? J3C-65
Pawnee is good too...

As for the models with training wheels....well obviously the Tomahawk....

PA-28-180 IMHO gives you the BEST bang for the buck. Enough horsepower to get you out of trouble, haul a lot from short fields, and economical fuel burn for what you get from the plane. Try and get a clean, earlier model before the empty weight started going up....

T-Hawk

 

[Tinstaafl]

Squale,

Aircraft manufacturers, like car manufacturers, develop their models over time, sometimes as a brand new design and other times part of a series of incremental changes to some model.

Some of the details of exact model numbers vs names I'm a bit hazy on now but Piper's models (& Cessna's equivalents) are roughly:

* PA11/18 (Cub, Super Cub): High wing, tailwheel, rag-and-tube construction, 2 seater tandems ie not side-by-side seating. 65 - 150 (180?) HP.

Cessna equiv ~ C120, C140 (some are part semi-monocoque aluminium). Also the C150 Tailwheel conversion.


* PA22 (Colt, Pacer, Tri-Pacer things): Also rag & tube but 2 (or 4 seaters). Some are nosewheel variants of original tailwheel type).

* PA28 (Cherokee/Warrior series). This series has a huge range of variants with changes in HP, retractable undercarriage, constant speed propellor & a new wing design:

* PA28-140: The original Cherokee. 4 seater, low-ish HP compared to the later models. Has the 'Hershey bar' wing ie same chord from wing root to tip.

Cessna: Early C172s with the 145 HP 6 cylinder engine.

* PA28-150: Newer version with slightly more HP (150 HP

* PA28-151: PA28-150 with Piper's new semi-tapered wing design. Model line was called the Warrior

Cessna: C172s with the 150 HP 4 cyl Lycoming engine (O-320) eg L & M model years.

* PA28-161: Like the -151 but with 160 HP. Still an O-320 but higher compression ratio). Not sure if there was a -160 version ie straight wing &160 HP.

Cessna: C172s with the 160 HP 4 cyl Lycoming donk. Also the Cessna's C177 - an unsuccessful intended replacement for the venerable C172 series - would also fit here.
Beechcraft: C24 Sundowner. 4 seat 160 HP.

* PA28-181 (Archer). 180 HP & semi-tapered wing. A Lycoming O-360 engine.

Cessna: C172 Cutless. More or less the same engine as the Archer but with a constant speed prop (CSU). Slightly larger is the C182. Different & larger design with 6 Cyl 230 HP & CSU.

* PA28R: Retractable version of the -150 with a 180 or 200 HP fuel injected engine. Later models gained the semi-tapered wing & some a T-tail. I think even later models went back to the straight tail.

Cessna: C172 RG (Cutless RG). A Cutless with retractable undercarriage. Similarly the retractable C182 RG (has an extra 5 HP as well). Cessna's C177RG - a retractable variant of the C177 - fits here.
Beechcraft: C24R. 4 seat retractable with 200HP & CSU

* PA24 Commanche: Relatively high performance 4 seat single with 260 HP, retractable gear & CSU.

Cessna: C182 RG.
Beechcraft: Debonair or 33 model Bonanza

* PA32 Cherokee 6: Sort of an enlarged version of the PA28. Seats up to 7 (in a squeeze with the optional 7th seat...). Lycoming O-540 6 Cyl carburetted 260 HP/CSU or 300 HP with fuel injection (the engine is then designated as an IO-540)

Cessna: C205 or C206. Virtually the same aircraft. One is a newer development of the other. C207 also fits here. C207 is a stretched C206 with an extra row of seats. New C206s have a Lycoming engine instead of the original Continental.

* PA32R Lance: Retractable version of the 300 HP Cherokee 6.

Later versions of the Cherokee 6/Lance gained a semi-tapered wing & some a T-tail.

Cessna: C210. 6 seat retractable with 300 HP Continental IO0520. The 300 HP is time limited to 5 mins max then power must be reduced to 285 HP.
Beechcraft: A36 Bonanza. Beech's competitor to the C210s & PA32Rs. Same engine as the C210 but without the 300 HP time limited setting. Later models have the newer Cont. IO-550 that allows 300 HP without a time limit.

* PA38: The Tomahawk. 2 seat trainer with Lycoming's O-235 4 cyl 115 HP engine.

Cessna: C150 & C152. C150 has a Continental 100 HP engine (& a 40 deg flap setting. Great for short field landings!), C152 has the same donk as the PA38 at 110HP & max. 30 deg flap.



I've missed quite few variants, and all the multi-engine developments etc but this might help you get an idea of what's what.

 

[TheChief]

Can't beat the Archer...although a bigger useful load would be nice.

I don't understand why anyone would buy an Arrow these days. Seems like a lot of extra money, insurance, and maintenance costs to only go 10-15kts faster.

 

[TDTURBO]

Can't beat the Archer...although a bigger useful load would be nice.

I don't understand why anyone would buy an Arrow these days. Seems like a lot of extra money, insurance, and maintenance costs to only go 10-15kts faster.

Because they are relatively cheap and a quick way of building retract time.

 

[414Flyer]

The PA28 is the venerable Piper Cherokee family. It is Piper's equivalent of the Cessna 172.

The "140" or "150" or "151" after the name indicates the amount of horsepower and other things, such as the wing design.

150 means 150 horsepower with a certain wing. 151 means 150 horsepower with a different kind of wing.

I am pretty sure the 28-140 still has 150 hp

 

[TDTURBO]

I am pretty sure the 28-140 still has 150 hp

I believe you are incorrect, most have had the conversion to the 150 STC which is cheap, but the "140" means HP.

 

[414Flyer]

I believe you are incorrect, most have had the conversion to the 150 STC which is cheap, but the "140" means HP.

No I think you are incorrect . Most came with 150hp, from the factory.

 

[JimNtexas]

For under $50K you can't beat a Warrior (PA28-151/161). You won't find an Archer (PA28-181) worth having for that, but there are plenty of good Warriors in your price range.

The Warrior is a highly reliable airplane. It is tough, simple, and inexpensive as airplanes go. It has a modern panel. It can lift two adults and small kid or two. It's not real fast, but it can fly all day on the 50 gallons of gas. In hot weather, just fill it to the tabs (36 gallons).

Try to find the 160hp engine, the extra 10 horses help. The Lyc 0-320 motor will last well beyond the 2000 hour TBO if it is being flown frequently and getting regular oil changes. It is as bulletproof as an airplane motor could be.

For any of the Cherokee line (PA-28-xxx) be sure the plan flies will trim up and fly straight. Some have been bent beyond fixing by one too many hard landings, and a bent airplane is no fun to fly.

For whatever plane you get, you need to budget at least 10% of the purchase price for first year maintenance.