Westwind 2 Minimum Fuel Requirements

[DruDown]

I was having a discussion with my D.O. about the minimum IFR fuel requirements for our Westwind 2. I believe that the prescribed minimum to land with is at least 1500lbs.

Is this correct? Can any other Westwind pilots confirm this or provide me with the correct numbers? Thank you.

Dru

 

[Lead Sled]

DruDown...

That's actually a very good question. I've never flown a Westwind, but I've got a few hours in the Astra with the same -3A or -3C engines and the fuel flows would be the same or nearly so. The regs call for 30 minutes fuel if you're flying VFR (wink, wink) or 45 minutes if you're IFR. In the real world, you're going to burn 2,000 pounds the first hour so that makes it pretty simple - 1,500 pounds. I suppose that you could pose the arguement that you could get by with 1,200 pounds since you would be flying at reduced cruise power.

Unfortunately, there will alway be those who will try to rationalize lower fuel reserves. My favorite is the "professsional" who I flew with occassionally who used to brag about how he used to fly from TEB to OAK and routinely land with 800 pounds. Needless to say, he and I didn't get along too well.

A wise man once said, "The only time you can have too much fuel onboard is if you're on fire." Personally, I believe that there's no good reason to land with less than one hour's fuel and I flight plan to land with a minimum of 2,000 pounds. If it's a VFR day and an airport that I'm familiar with then I'll consider 1,500 pounds. If I'm going into a high density area, with weather a factor then I'll be packing more fuel. I learned a long time ago that it isn't a contest to see who can land with the least amount of fuel. If we do go below 2,000 pounds it's with the concurrence of both pilots. Oh well, that's just me.

Lead Sled

 

[Chocks]

I've got around 700 hours in the Westwinds. 1500 pounds is a good number. 1200 works, but why not stick with 1500?

 

[DruDown]

Sled and Chocks,


Thanks for the input, I appreciate it. I too believe that the more fuel the merrier (unless you're on fire, of course). Unfortunately, as we all know, there are those who like to push the limit.

Now that we have the fuel squared away, another question. Suppose you are flying with a captain who assumes all of the preflight responsibilities, including fuel loading. He/she arrives hours early to assure that he/she is in charge of all of the planning. Routinely, you ask about the flight planning, fuel, weather, etc. and consistently get a response to the likes of, "It's all OK, we have enough fuel and the weather is good enough." Being the consciensious(?) pilot that you are, you always double check the weather, the flight planning, fuel, etc., not wanting to leave it in the hands of someone you aren't sure if you really trust.

Now, the aircraft is grounded for several months for maintenance, paint, interior and you have not flown it for these months, let's say, seven months. Your captain has just returned from recurrent training and the plane needs to be test flown and you are assigned to the flight. Now, being out of the loop for months and flying other equipment and with other pilots, you show up, the preflight is complete the flight planning is done (as usual) and you hop on board. As you take off you realize that there is not enough fuel on board to complete the mission with your legal reserves let alone some extra cushion considering the plane has been on the gorund for a while.

After questioning the captain about the fuel a few times and getting no response, after pointing out landing and refueling options and getting as a response, "We will make it," the question is this: What do you do? What do you say? You land with 1000 lbs of fuel, who do you report this to, and how do you deal with the captain?

I know this is a little long, but I would really appreciate your insights.

Thanks,
DRU

 

[Chocks]

That could be a tough decision, but not necessarily so. 1000 lbs isn't necessarily an emergency situation. Depends on where you are going...what is the weather, etc. The bad part is the CRM issues with the Captain.

First, I'd set up a DUATS account for your airplane with fuel burn, etc. You should know where you are going, you can run fuel numbers ahead of time so you can have an idea ahead of time what your gas should be. If the Captain has his head up his ass you can show him the numbers you printed off duats. (Duats is free)

I don't see a big deal with him doing the preflight and having it done before you show up. I can't think of any plane I have flown where BOTH pilots do the preflight. If it really means something to you, show up earilier and walk with him.

If he won't bawk on adding more fuel based on your computer complications just quietly tell him that you won't get on the airplane until he agrees to add fuel to meet FAR mins.

The Bagel-Bomber is a good piece of gear - about the only jet it's size that can usually transcon on one bag of gas.

Good luck, stick up for yourself and be assertive - Bill

 

[Lead Sled]

FWIW, I agree with Chocks - 1,000 lbs isn't an emergency, but you have zero margin at that point. It doesn't take a lot of imagination to come up with a scenario that, under those circumstances, could turn really ugly.

I too believe that the greater issue is one of CRM, or rather the lack of it. Chock's suggestion of having an idea of the fuel requirements is a good one. That's precisely what I had to do when I drew the "short straw" and had to fly with Captain Hot Shot. Know what it is going to take then stand your ground. Bottom line is not to let him kill you.

Lead Sled

 

[DruDown]

Thanks for your input.

 

[kilroy]

Westwind min. fuel

I,d say that 2000 pounds is a good goal for landing althought I have landing 1500# on a clear vfr day. the last company I flew with the owners wanted to land home with 1000 to 800 total because they had there own fuel farm .I say screw that it,s my ass on the line . shoot for a 1000 a side .

 

[westwind driver]

We use NBAA IFR Reserve with 200nm alternate and 45 minutes of holding.
We figure 200nms will take 1000 LBS and 700-800 lbs of fuel for holding.

Generally we shoot for 1800 LBS, but we have landed in known and forcasted VFR/VMC conditions with 1200 LBS.

I was having a discussion with my D.O. about the minimum IFR fuel requirements for our Westwind 2. I believe that the prescribed minimum to land with is at least 1500lbs.

Is this correct? Can any other Westwind pilots confirm this or provide me with the correct numbers? Thank you.

Dru

 

[soarby007]

Dru

Simuflite recommends that 1500 be the reserve fuel, which actually is the daytime, VFR minimum fuel requirement. This is not 'ground' fuel, as is often referred by other pilots, but a VFR reserve. It is a reasonable amount if the conditions are VFR and not a busy area like the New York or California areas. In those areas, I always add another 500 lbs for low altitudes and attitudes from controllers. This works well VFR. IFR I carry a minimum of 2000 lbs and more if going to New York.

Brent

 

[kilroy]

Like I said I target about 1000 per side on a normal day. If the weather starts to fall I fly the plane more effiecentlly saving fuel you can make alot of fuel by flying slower staying high and not flying at 350 kias more like 280 kias . If the weather is good I,ll haul a$$ typically descend 330 plus knots I,m landing around 900 pounds per side with almost 3000 hrs in WW24's this has worked just fine.

 

[Daveman]

Off the topic: If you use fltplan.com. what are your fuel burn #'s?

 

[kilroy]

typically I use 1800# 1st hour about 1600# 2nd hr and around 1450 the 3rd. But if I,m climbing out hot and heavy my first hour is more like 2000 pounds.Descends can vary depends how you fly it. 1200 is a pretty good number for descends. If you run a constant mach for long range cruise you can get the fuel burn way down . I've done 5:45 hrs and still had 900 per side. When we went to Europe before we were RVSM we'd fly at fl260 3.7 hours and have 2400 pounds left over.

Off the topic: If you use fltplan.com. what are your fuel burn #'s?

 

[Daveman]

Good numbers. How do you incorporate these #'s in fltplan.com? That's my question. The A/C performance page asks for fuel burn from 1k to 450.
I use fltplan, but would also like to utilize the fuel burn section.
I/we use the numbers you stated and they work great. I just like some backup/other information. Thanks for the info.

 

[kilroy]

I use csc duats instead of flightplanner