Warning to CAL Pilots

[Captain Morgan]

Had a CAL guy in the jumpseat who was oblivious about what's happening over at XJT and so I thought I needed to share. Chautauqua Airlines has been awarded 69 aircraft worth of flying starting in 2007. Chautauqua Airlines has Embrear 170s and they're not afraid to use them. Don't weaken your scope clauses because Larry tells you he needs you to. Is the picture being painted clearly?

Captain Morgan

 

[calfo]

Correction: Chataqua has been awarded the actual 69 aircraft - 50 seaters - in 2007, that are going to be withheld from XJet service if XJet doesn't "race for the bottom" like the rest of us.

I think XJet will cave - they're not going to find a better deal than they have with Continental.

 

[Dewey Oxberger]

Actually, CAL mgt. was out to screw us from the beginning, regardless of what we offered them. If Sh!tty Kitty ends up getting any more than a handful of those 69 planes most of us at XJT will be quite surprised. So yes, CAL pilots, beware of your scope, because many of us over on this side of the tracks think this was their plan all along. Reduce 25% of the COEX RJs, no ERJs available to replace them, but plenty of Chicken Taco 170s! Hopefully with your new union leadership you guys will hold strong and Shaniqua won't see a single plane with a globe on the tail.

 

[superrav]

Correction: Chataqua has been awarded the actual 69 aircraft - 50 seaters - in 2007, that are going to be withheld from XJet service if XJet doesn't "race for the bottom" like the rest of us.

I think XJet will cave - they're not going to find a better deal than they have with Continental.

you dont know from you head to your ass...u guys arent getting the planes...you have a bean counter managing the company now..so be prepared to take it up the..

 

[Jonny Sacko]

you dont know from you head to your ass...u guys arent getting the planes...you have a bean counter managing the company now..so be prepared to take it up the..

Hmm..

 

[cfdoubleeye]

Just to clairify the misinformation here:

Taco got the contract for any aircraft XJT gives up and quits leasing from CAL. Same event will occur two years from now also. The word direct from XJT mgt. is that the aircraft are NOT leaving, or at least a large portion of them.

Everything is speculation beyond that, with an announcement due out in September. In a recent new hire class Ream told the pilots to expect an announcement sooner rather than later, and the news would be impressive (paraphrased, not quoted).

Taco may score a few seats, but far fewer than 69 X 50 seats.

 

[wms]

It's like the Lorenzo days when they tried to squeeze he pilot group. First XJT is used as an example, then ML starts getting the squeeze. I wonder ALPA is during all this? Stick to scope CAL, even if it means smaller planes for ML. Learn from DAL, UAL, USA, etc.

 

[ERJ Jay]

Good or bad, the rumors floating around is that we've found work for the airplanes. They're basically, to my understanding, waiting until the absolute last minute to announce the deal so the CHQ or CAL can't find enough replacement airplanes and get them into position in time so that CAL's holding the bag.

The other important point is that prior to Sept 11th, we were flying these airframes 11+ hours a day. We now average barely over 8 per day. It's been widely speculated that this was all a way for CAL to off load some of the risk of these RJs. If we find work for them great. If not, we'll find someone who will pay us more for them. Either way, CAL comes out on top. I just hope that whatever they're planning includes a Pacific time zone base!

 

[Ralgha]

Had a CAL guy in the jumpseat who was oblivious about what's happening over at XJT and so I thought I needed to share.

I'm confused. Why should this guy care, and what could he do about it if he did?

 

[Scrapdog]

Just curious, and I'm not trying to scoff anyone, but does this topic even affect any guys at CAL at all? I thought this was soley an XJT issue, and aren't XJT and CAL two seperate entities?

Before any RJ guys get riled up, realize I'm just asking from an outsider perspective...

 

[Stifler's Mom]

Correction: Chataqua has been awarded the actual 69 aircraft - 50 seaters - in 2007, that are going to be withheld from XJet service if XJet doesn't "race for the bottom" like the rest of us.

I think XJet will cave - they're not going to find a better deal than they have with Continental.

What is the seat capacity of the smallest airframe at CAL? XJT had up to 50-seats, and I also have wondered if there is a need for a 70- or 100-seat airframe in the mix?

 

[IAHERJ]

ERJ Jay has it correct. I heard this from an Express guy I sat next to on a Colgan flight the other day but it makes sense to me. CAL has wanted to get out of around 25 ERJ's for a while. Some Express guys think that taking the planes and using them for another carrier will be getting CAL back however CAL wins either way. They lease the planes at a slightly higher lease rate to XJT and get jout of 25 ERJ's and gets to utilize more 737's out of EWR etc. If XJT gives them back then Chataqua flies them at a lower cost to CAL. Just the opinion of an Express CA .

IAHERJ

 

[Alchemy]

What makes you think a CAL pilot would even care? The vast majority of them, even those that came from Express, couldn't give a rats @ss.

In fact, more often than not the CAL employees I talk to about Expressjet's "problems" almost seem happy about about it. After all, CAL management is prognosticating about how they're going to "SAVE THE PENSIONS" by saving money on regional flying. I also love to hear about that "Huge Raise" we got in our last contract while everyone else was taking paycuts.

You think anyone cares if a few hundred XJet pilots are furloughed? Maybe a few CAL people that have family members working at Express, but beyond that, no. In my opinion the CAL pilots should be concerned. Just look at all those "GUPPY KILLERS" at terminal A next time you're at IAH and try to imagine who's colors they will fly in next.

Some CAL employees even seem to think that because Xjet is being reduced the flying is going back to mainline.....where they get that is beyond me, it's simply a transferral of planes to a lower bidder.

 

[Captain Morgan]

I'm not posting this thread to argue over XJT pilots or flying or planes. I'm posting this post because I care about our profession. What I am posting this thread for, is to get the CAL pilots minds working. I'm posting it to wake them up and realize that you need to always be on guard. Management has no one's interest in mind but their own. I am always trying to guess their alterior motive. This is just one of the scenarios I think is brewing.

 

[ATRedneck]

Some CAL employees even seem to think that because Xjet is being reduced the flying is going back to mainline.....

Well, if XJT can find a use for the 69 airplanes, what will Shanehneh fly for CAL? They might be able to supply some planes, but not 69. Sure, there are some Canadairs finding their way to the desert, but would they be willing to incur a crapload of fixed costs just to get some extra airframes?

Take into account the 30+ more 737s coming to CAL beginning in 2007, and it's pretty easy to see how the flying could be coming back to mainline. There are already a lot more RJ city pairs starting to appear on 737 pairings, e.g. EWR-CHS, EWR-MHT, EWR-PVD, EWR-YYZ, IAH-PIT, IAH-MCI, IAH-OKC...

 

[Alchemy]

Well, maybe so, but why would they go to all the trouble of procuring bids from other regionals if their intent all along was just to dump the leases on some RJ's. In any event, I actually hope you're right. I'd much rather see growth at mainline that growth at Chitty Kitty, that's for sure.

 

[Captain Morgan]

I agree, I'd rather see the flying go to mainline! Chautauqua and the likes are the problem with the industry. The majority of jet flying needs to be at mainline companies.

 

[ATRedneck]

Well, maybe so, but why would they go to all the trouble of procuring bids from other regionals if their intent all along was just to dump the leases on some RJ's. In any event, I actually hope you're right. I'd much rather see growth at mainline that growth at Chitty Kitty, that's for sure.

I doubt that their intent was to dump RJ leases, but it's a safe bet that they have a contingency plan in case XJT does keep the 69 airplanes.

I've been hearing all along that the 737NGs coming in 2007 would be a replacement for the -300s, but who says that they have to get rid of the -300s?

 

[ilinipilot]

I think with CHQ getting the 69 planes there would be less reason to reduce the overall XJT fleet. If the feed can now be done for 20% cheaper, what is the incentive to lose the feed for the lucrative INTL routes?

 

[Happy Camper]

Just to clairify the misinformation here:

Taco got the contract for any aircraft XJT gives up and quits leasing from CAL. Same event will occur two years from now also. The word direct from XJT mgt. is that the aircraft are NOT leaving, or at least a large portion of them.

Everything is speculation beyond that, with an announcement due out in September. In a recent new hire class Ream told the pilots to expect an announcement sooner rather than later, and the news would be impressive (paraphrased, not quoted).

Taco may score a few seats, but far fewer than 69 X 50 seats.

Just to clarify your info: The earliest CAL can withdraw additional airplanes from XJT is 36 months from December 28, 2006. So worst case for XJT is CAL could withdraw an additional 25% from XJT's fleet starting no sooner than December 2009 (unless CAL unilaterally cancels the entire capacity purchase agreement and pulls everything from XJT).

 

[ERJ Jay]

There are already a lot more RJ city pairs starting to appear on 737 pairings, e.g. EWR-CHS, EWR-MHT, EWR-PVD, EWR-YYZ, IAH-PIT, IAH-MCI, IAH-OKC...

This also always happens to some degree in the summer as the 73s are pulled off the winter ski destination schedule and put back into the domestic network.

 

[frog_flyer]

has xjet hiring slowed down lately?

 

[RP170]

I agree, I'd rather see the flying go to mainline! Chautauqua and the likes are the problem with the industry. The majority of jet flying needs to be at mainline companies.

"The likes" would also include Express Jet. Last I knew they were also a regional jet operator that has stolen mainline routes as well.

 

[generaltso]

This is one of the better threads about the CAL/CHQ debacle I have read (probably because it is in the majors forum instead of the regionals). Most resort to name calling by now.

I think for the most part what people have said here is true. But I think the bottom line is: CAL wants to reduce the 50 seat flying, and this is the perfect way to do it. I think they would love for Xjet to place all 69 aircraft some where. They get increased money from the higher lease rates, and they get to trim down the 50 seat flying they have.

Then CAL will turn to CHQ and say "OK, where can you get some fifty seaters?". CHQ will turn to DAL and say "We will get rid of all the fifty seat flying we do with you (I think it is 30 aircraft or so), if you increase your 70 seat flying with us". DAL will agree and CHQ will turn those aircraft into CAL birds.

I think everyone involved in this deal (CAL/XJET/CHQ) hopes that XJET keeps at least half of the aircraft. My only question is - where the hell is XJET going to put any 50 seaters these days? It seems like the only opportunities are outside of this country. Every major already has it's fifty seat flying wrapped up. Most LCC's aren't going to bite. The only one I could see maybe trying it would be Frontier.

Any thoughts on where those planes can go?

 

[frog_flyer]

This is one of the better threads about the CAL/CHQ debacle I have read (probably because it is in the majors forum instead of the regionals). Most resort to name calling by now.

I think for the most part what people have said here is true. But I think the bottom line is: CAL wants to reduce the 50 seat flying, and this is the perfect way to do it. I think they would love for Xjet to place all 69 aircraft some where. They get increased money from the higher lease rates, and they get to trim down the 50 seat flying they have.

Then CAL will turn to CHQ and say "OK, where can you get some fifty seaters?". CHQ will turn to DAL and say "We will get rid of all the fifty seat flying we do with you (I think it is 30 aircraft or so), if you increase your 70 seat flying with us". DAL will agree and CHQ will turn those aircraft into CAL birds.

isnt that the whole deal with the dal TA? wont the pilots flip********************?

 

[justenjoyflyin]

A republic person that doesnt know that continental made us, they gave us the flying nothing was stolen from cal's mainline. It use to be just like american and eagle with a flow back and everything. Too bad cal pilots arent sticking up for us, because I know everyone at express would have cal pilots back and most want to go to continental or at least did until the bean counters showed up. Still dont think this would be happening if bethune was still at cal.

 

[Ben Franklin]

Still dont think this would be happening if bethune was still at cal.

It already has/did:

-Gulfstream
-Cape Air
-Skywest
-American Eagle (LAX)
-Colgan

All currently push/have pulled inventory around the sky for CAL under previous CEOs.

Sincerely,

B. Franklin

 

[bluebound]

It seems like everyone is confident that the 70 seat airplanes are going to be emb's. I'm not so sure. I was in EWR the other day when CAL was doing a demo flight on the Dash 8-400. Seems like they enjoyed the flight. They been looking for someone to fly the old turbo props again.

 

[IAHERJ]

While I haven't heard anything about Dash 8-400's from anyone with any decision making power, it makes sense. A 70 seat TP would be perfect for EWR as it would be able to fly VFR up the river for departures and use 11/29 at all weights. Remote parking around A concourse or by the old C4 would make sense and the markets the old ATR's were used on(including the 66 seat -72's) have always been a better fit for a TP. 70 seat TP's aren't mentioned in the scope clause and could be flown by anyone without any gripe by CAL pilots. I'd welcome the comfortable -400 as I deadhead from time to time on Express out of EWR as part of my pairings. While I like the ERJ, the Dash8-400 is nice.

IAHERJ

 

[Plug]

After spending almost 6 years as a Delta red headed step child I certainly understand the feeling amongst the XJT folks. In fact, on my last day we had just recieved a memo from ASA management regarding the COEX flying and how management was very upset about not getting the contract. I laughed!

I haven't made it to IAH yet for training but I am pretty that the characterization that the CAL mainline pilots haven't a clue is wrong. There maybe a few and most of their names probably appear in a book somewhere, but the CAL MEC is quite aware I'm sure.

I would imagine the CAL pilots don't care about the 50 seat flying XJT lost because it is already scoped out. It isn't worth the energy to worry about that flying unless the CAL MEC wants it back. The E170 is a nice airplane but CAL management has already stated that they aren't interested, the 737-500 fits that niche.

Now, when the 737-500 ages some more then there may be some discussion but I for one am not interested in seeing an airplane I fly replaced by an airplane flown by another company. The CAL MEC has not let the 70 seat cat out of the bag like every other mainline carrier and I don't think there is any plan to.