war with Iraq

[ksu_aviator]

My opinion is this: if we don't attack, and we continue with inspections and politics will that accomplish the goal? Remember the goal? Disarming Iraq and Saddam.

Lets say we don't go to war and we continue the current process. If the inspectors don't/can't find a nuke and Saddam does develop it what are we going to do? He'll hold that bomb up and use it to get his way. Would we back down then? Hell no. We'd attack, he'd use it and millions of people in Turkey, Israel, Kuwait or Saudia Arabia will be killed by that bomb.

Now, maybe the above will not happen, but if it does can we live with the choice to not use force to disarm Iraq?

The best scenario is for Saddam to back down, go into exhile and let the Iraqi people set up their new government. Everyone would be happy then. Really, the ball is in Saddam's court.


North Korea, on the other hand, is a different monster. They can be reasonably expected to not use their weapons. Their motives are more likely to be about money then to take over the region or to kill others. They are also a perfect example of why we can't let Saddam get nukes. We can't attack N. Korea because they can nuke us or anyone else.

 

[got_jumpseat?]

my $.02

I feel the evidence for Iraq was overwhelming 3 years ago. I don't need any more. Let the bombing commence. The minute Saddam attempts to use gas or germs against coalition troops or Israeli civilians, the frogs, krauts and ruskies will have to shut up.

"Violence begets violence" is a bunch of bull. Violence only begets more violence when it is ineffective. If you inflict overwhelming crushing and decisive violence, this NEVER begets more violence because all your enemies are dead.

You critics can kiss my arse you claim to be so worried about "innocent iraqi civilians" but your real concern is your precious jet job. I would gladly sacrifice my career and see my company tank for a world at true real lasting peace.
Kill em all have a ball & lets end this fricking crisis.

 

[got_jumpseat?]

As far as N Korea thay have no idea what a win-win situation is. They wont settle for anything but a lose-lose deal. I am sure we can accomodate them too. Now that is a real pickle. We would probably lose much of Seoul in the military process. Seoul is a HUGE economy.

 

[FL000]

this won't take long

story from The Guardian

The choice for Iraq's rag-tag army: be killed by the US or by Saddam

Luke Harding in Chamchamal hears a defector's tale of low morale

Saturday February 8, 2003
The Guardian

For Private Abass Shomail the war in Iraq ended before it had even begun. Two days ago Abass slipped away from his sentry post and started running in darkness across the muddy frontline. He stumbled past the newly dug trenches designed to protect Iraq's conscript army from American bombardment.
He kept going. Eventually he found himself in a rolling landscape of green hills and pine trees, the Kurdish self-rule enclave in the north of Iraq. Abass was the first deserter from the Iraqi military to cross into Kurdistan for several months. Yesterday, in an interview with the Guardian, he gave a unique insight into the condition of the Iraqi army on the eve of an imminent and massive US attack.

Though defectors are a notoriously unreliable source of intelligence, the fact that he had crossed the border into Kurdish-held territory only days earlier, together with his lowly rank and the lack of any apparent incentives to embellish his story, all point to the credibility of his account.

Morale was very low, he said, both among his fellow conscripts and among civilians. "We want America to attack because of the bad situation in our country. But we don't want America to launch air strikes against Iraqi soldiers because we are forced to shoot and defend. We are also victims in this situation."

Abass was yesterday in custody in Chamchamal, a small Kurdish smuggling town overlooked by low green hills and Iraqi army posts. From the edge of town, the silhouettes of Iraqi soldiers could be seen peering out from their bunkers across the fields.

The Kurdish fighters or pershmerga ("those who do not fear death") who took Abbas into custody interrogated him for a day to establish he was not a spy. Yesterday he was still wearing his olive Iraqi army overcoat and woolly balaclava. His new home was a small heated room with a TV set tuned to the Arabic station al-Jazeera.

Conditions back in the Iraqi trenches were not so good, he said. "We have two blankets for every soldier, but they are very thin and don't keep us warm. The officers beat us. And the food is disgusting. I'm only paid 50 dinars [about £3] a month."

What would have happened if he had been caught trying to run away? "I would have been executed."

As the US military puts the finishing touches to its invasion plan, it is clear that Saddam Hussein's recruits and volunteers face bleak choices in the coming weeks. If they remain in their positions they run the risk of being pulverised by American missiles. But if they try to surrender they risk being shot.

At the moment it is hard to know which is the greater danger. "There are two groups in the Iraqi army," Abbas said.

"One is made up of soldiers like me. The other is the Republican Guard. The special guard will support and defend Saddam. The ordinary soldiers and many of the commanders will surrender."

But for the moment Iraq's military commanders are making frantic preparations for a battle whose outcome nobody seems to doubt. Earlier this week, troops manoeuvred four enormous Russian-made Katyusha rocket launchers into position behind the frontline at Chamchamal.

Some 1,500 Iraqi reinforcements have just arrived. Dozens of tanks have been concealed in trenches, Abbas confirmed, as well as anti-aircraft batteries.

"The Katyusha rocket launchers are not there for aesthetic reasons," the town's Kurdish head of security, Adel Muhammad, joked. "But we have our undercover agents. They tell us that when America attacks the Iraqi soldiers will surrender."

Officials from the Patriotic Union of Kurdistan, the party that controls the valleys and mountains around the town of Sulaymaniyah, say they are not expecting a pre-emptive Iraqi offensive in the north, given the huge US invasion force assembling in Kuwait.

But President Saddam's record against the Kurds is brutal. Nothing can be ruled out. And the disconcerting possibility remains that, hidden among the ordnance may be artillery shells fitted with chemical weapons.

Every day hundreds of Kurds cross an Iraqi checkpoint to the oil-rich government-controlled town of Kirkuk, a 30-minute drive away. They bring Kent cigarettes smuggled in from Turkey. They return with plastic containers full of paraffin.

"We have to bribe the Iraqi guards $2 each time we cross," Hersh Abdul Karim, an 18-year-old smuggler, said.

The soldiers Abbas left behind, meanwhile, sit in their hilltop bunkers, pondering an unenviable fate. "We are all very tired," Abbas said. "I haven't heard of Tony Blair. But if George Bush wants to give us freedom then we will welcome it."

 

[embdrvr]

Has anyone read what Ret'd General Norman Schwarzkopf has to say about Iraq? He doesn't seem to agree with Dubya on the immediate need to go in there. Regardless of where you stand on the issue I think most of you would agree that General Schwarzkopf has a bit of experience in that theatre of operations.

 

[roughneck]

I agree he has the experience and I respect his opinion, but he no longer has access to classified information. I guarantee you that the pictures we saw on TV were not the best we have. We do not want to give out our intelligence capabilities. I would imagine that our leaders were reading the tiny warning labels on the bombs the Iraqi's were pulling out of the warehouses. They probably were able to count the number of teeth missing from each driver.

Norman may have an opinion, but he doesn't have the evidence that G.W. has. Guaranteed.

 

[embdrvr]

Norman may have an opinion, but he doesn't have the evidence that G.W. has. Guaranteed.

If the evidence is so overwhelming and General Schwarzkopf is out of the loop why aren't the rest of the NATO countries more keen on supporting the effort? Surely we've shared what we know with the top intel folks of our partner countries. Are they all cowards and we're the only ones with brass cajones?

 

[roughneck]

That would be my guess.

 

[ksu_aviator]

Gen Schwarzkopf is on Meet the press this morning and he has done a 180 from his previous position. He now fully supports the idea of using military action to disarm Saddam.

Albright is also on there, and I haven't figured out what she supports. It was funny to watch her squirm when Timmy showed a clip of her saying (5 years ago) that Saddam was more evil than Hitler and that he needed to be disarmed.

 

[100LL... Again!]

All this stuff has been fully gamed out.

The reticience shown by some politicians (at home and abroad) is often a charade. They are fully intending to support the war. The goal of all the subterfuge is to keep the public (everywhere) uncertain.

Powell has been on board since day one. We are stationing troops and weaponry all over the middle east in countries that supposedly are against this war. These guys fear hussein MORE than they hate us. If the US and Israel were gone, the first thing that would hapen is that every middle eatern nation would be at war with each other. They are united only by a common hatred.
Despite allthe religious zealotry, most of these nations are very pragmatic. They know hussein is a MAJOR threat to THEM (ask the poor Kurds).

The cowardly French and Germans oppose the war mostly because of their precious economic ties with Iraq. This makes them parties to his despot rule.

France and Germany should not be allowed to comment on world policy until France has repaid the war debt, and Germany has compensated the descendants of every Person they tried to kill in WWII.

Anyway, Gerhard Shroeder, for all his anti-Americanism, is in a HUGE pickle politically. I love it!!!

Germany can, as far as I am concerned SHUT THE F-----G H--L UP for another 100 years. They have not earned the right to be a player yet.