WANTED: Furloughed DAL pilots?

[cl65@350]

I have heard this topic discussed on some other "propaganda boards" but it seems to be building steam. The rumor that has been circulating around the lounges has finally made it to the flightinfo boards....RE: Delta getting the CRJ 70 seaters.

IF and only IF that rumor is true, many folks think that Delta will not be able to get a cost advantage because they think that Dalpa will ask for too much in wages...well...what do the furloughed Delta pilots think of this scenario...unfortunately, it is not an original thought but one that has been brewing in many flight lounges.

Would the furloughed pilots accept a new working agreement {wholly owned subsidiary} that would socialize the payscales of the comair/asa pay rates. For example, if a 4 year capt on the crj70 makes $70/hr, and an F.O. makes $30/hr....then pay the furloughed delta pilots $50/hr for both the Capt and FO seat...A lot of you will say WHATTTTTT? Well think about it...you both get typed...happy! You both make a "livable" wage, not a great wage but you know it will get better eventually when you transition to mainline equipment down the road. You can bid to fly Capt or FO...who knows it may go junior or senior depending on if you want certain days off per month. Maybe you would trade legs in the left seat like many corporate pilots do. It would make Delta happy because they realize the same cost advantage they have at the DCI carriers...remember it would be an entirely different PWA, not the Dalpa PWA...that would create problems with the RJDC thing I guess, I don't know much about that!

Thing is...I think the Delta pilots will want some sort of carrot for taking concessions, and with furloughed guys on the street they will want some sort of deal. Why grow the DCI carriers when they can bring the 70 seater to mainline and get the furloughed group to fly them...IF THEY WANT...a lot of furloughed guys would not leave their current jobs for the 50K a year anyway, just those who wanted to fly! Dalpa would create a maximum amount of 70 seaters and anything over that amount had to be countered with a 737-800 or something like that.

As far as the military guys not wanting to go into an RJ....well think about it...it would be kinda fun getting to sit in the BOTH seats and flying for 50K a year until something opens up on mainline. When mainline starts hiring again you may have a few people stay at the 70 seater for quality of life issues...didn't delta express have a bunch of 2-3 year captains before 9-11?

anyway sorry for the rambling...i had to type ultra fast and not proofread anything...any of you have wives know how much they love to have their counterparts on the computer!

later

 

[General Lee]

Well, since I am not furloughed, but have MANY friends who are, I might take a crack at this one. From what I hear from my friends, many would take a crack at a lower payscale and a chance to fly again. The key is that they will eventually go back tothe 737, or MD88 etc as pilots continue to retire. I don't know what the pay rates would be, and I doubt there would be an exchangeable seat--FO to Capt etc--but I am sure the furloughed pilots would go to that rather than sit at home. You have to remember that this would really help Delta out because there is a limit----57--on the number of 70 seat jets---and that would go through 2005 and beyond if negotiations were slow. So, it would benefit Delta big time to have the ability to get more---and they have options for both 50 and 70 seaters. I am sure they could take a little hit on slightly higher wages ---just slightly---for the chance at 50 or so more 70 seaters. Who knows? Hopefully NY Rangers and FDJ will respond.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[cl65@350]

you might be right about the fo/capt seat, but i was trying to find a way to get a furloughed pilot back into the seat. i doubt there would be many furloughed guys coming back to fly in the right seat for $30/hr! if you averaged it out to $50/hr per seat, then it would save in the training costs and make it more desirable for the furloughed guys to leave their current jobs for the crj...you also have to imagine the upward momentum (upgrades etc) would be pretty fluid depending on the mainline recall rate...therefore why not type you day one...just as delta used to do for newhires going into express way back when upgrades were about a year or so!

it will be interesting to see what will happen, but i think that comair really stirred the pot and was a catalyst in the possibility of making this thing happen. maybe these furloughed guys will be so pissed they would undercut comair just to get their planes...who knows, but i think in hindsight it was pretty stupid of that mec chairman to dismiss the possibility of comair hiring furloughed guys...i doubt many would have even gone to comair, for $20/hr, but it is the principle that counts in the long run.

 

[General Lee]

CL65,

The bottom pay rate at Delta is $52.00 an hour---currently. That is the 1st year pay for an FO position, or outgoing SO postion. Second year pay on the 737 (any version besides 737-800) is close to $105 an hour. So, I wonder what it would be on the CRJ70 as a captain? It probably wouldn't be that high (like 737FO)---but close. I highly doubt the pay on the FO of the CRJ70 would be $30 an hour, mainly because the senior guys on furlough are almost on their 3rd year pay. The senior guys on furlough would have 1st crack at coming back on that plane. I would guess that the Capt pay (3rd year Capt) would be around $90 an hour, and 3rd year FO--$65 an hour. That is just a guess, and I bet Delta would still make a lot of money--due to the fact that senior Comair and ASA pilots make more than that on the CRJ70--and they are at their 12 year pay etc... I bet many 4th or 5th year pilots on mainline now would jump at the chance to be a Capt on the CRJ70 too.

Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[Old Crow]

You guys are thinking too much. The 70 seat RJ is a Regional aircraft. The "carrott" will be... We need more relief on scope limitations in exchange for calling back the furloughed pilots on a set number per month. Otherwise the loss of revenue will require us to maintain our current pilot staffing levels.

Management decisions are rarely out of the ordinary due to the risk and expense it may involve.

Sounds like the court already said that Delta is making enough money to support it's pilot group.
Let's hope the recall is soon and the 70's stay where they are.

OR ONE LIST to solve all.

 

[surplus1]

CL65,

The bottom pay rate at Delta is $52.00 an hour---currently. That is the 1st year pay for an FO position, or outgoing SO postion. Second year pay on the 737 (any version besides 737-800) is close to $105 an hour. So, I wonder what it would be on the CRJ70 as a captain? It probably wouldn't be that high (like 737FO)---but close. I highly doubt the pay on the FO of the CRJ70 would be $30 an hour, mainly because the senior guys on furlough are almost on their 3rd year pay. The senior guys on furlough would have 1st crack at coming back on that plane. I would guess that the Capt pay (3rd year Capt) would be around $90 an hour, and 3rd year FO--$65 an hour. That is just a guess, and I bet Delta would still make a lot of money--due to the fact that senior Comair and ASA pilots make more than that on the CRJ70--and they are at their 12 year pay etc... I bet many 4th or 5th year pilots on mainline now would jump at the chance to be a Capt on the CRJ70 too.

Bye Bye---General Lee

Boy I sure like the way you "guess". Maybe the DMEC will elect you to their negotiating committee.

I know you'd like to see the CRJ700 at the mainline and, if you can get it, more power to you. However, if you were a bit more realistic with your thinking you might understand why the Company is probably not eager to do this.

Consider the following: (Assumes you get the airplane 6/03).

3rd year pay for this aircraft at CMR is as follows:

CA = 67.78 FO = 40.67 Crew = $108.45. Add to that the "burden" resulting from work rules, vactions, sick leave, medical and retirement (approximately 30% at CMR) and you have a crew cost of $141.38 (approximately).

According to you a furloughed DAL pilot (3rd yr.) would make
CA = $90.00 FO = $65.00 Crew = $155.00. Add to that the "burden" of the Delta PWA (very conservatively about 46%) and you come out with $226.30. A difference of $85.00 (approximately).

Those numbers do not include any training costs. They also do not include the additional costs of operating any airplane within the infrastructure of DAL as opposed to that of CMR.

On top of all that, unless you get ALL the CRJ700s, including those currently at ASA and CMR, operating the airplane with higher pay at mainline will simply force the Company to deal with attempts to match those scales at its subsidiaries. I'm sure they'll love that.

The recent arbitration ruling prevents DAL from furloughing additional pilots under the FM clause that was used in the past. That is good! What is NOT so good is that the ruling does NOT require an immediate recall and the recall conditions are nebulous at best. That doesn't make me happy, but it is true just the same.

Given the foregoing, I have two questions for you:

Why is it that you think the Company would be "eager" to incur the additional costs and risks of placing the CRJ700 at mainline? Particularly when they already own two subisdiaries that can not only do it better, but do it for less?

What would the DAL pilots be willing to "give" the Company, that it can't already get from you, that might entice them to do that?

Please don't say RJ Scope relief. IMO, the Company already has more than enough leverage over you to get what "scope relief" it thinks it needs, without incurring additional costs. Do you really expect them to do this as a "gesture of good will"?

I wish you the best of luck in getting the furloughees back, but I think you're barking up the wrong tree if you believe you'll do it this way. The bottom line, IMO, is that you will have to match or better the CMR cost structure across the board in order to make it worth while for the Company to do this. If you're not willing to do that, then you'll have to give up something else.

Be careful what you ask for, you might get it. You'd better hope that UAL liquidates for if they do not, and they are able to start up their own LCC, you will be hard pressed to keep your LCC (Song) from matching their new contract terms, whatever they might be.

I suspect you're going to come under intense pressure to agree to a different contract and pay structure for Song even if UAL doesn't go belly up, especially if U survives.

You might well be better off by renegotiating new contract terms for the LCC, with the quid pro quo of its future growth as the means to recall your furloughed pilots.

Jousting at windmills in the world you don't have (RJs), while ignoring the world in which you belong, and the rest of the world that surrounds you, doesn't appear to be very productive. You may be able to generate activity on these message boards, but that won't get your pilots back to work and it won't fly in the Boardroom.

I wish you all the best, but at the same time I warn you that attempting to take the CRJ700 from ASA and CMR (adding them to mainline would do just that), is not likely to get you what you want, at least not for the furloughed pilots.

There may be far better and much easier ways to hasten the recall of the furloughed pilots. I suggest you consider some of them. Be creative, I'm afraid it is necessary in these times. What you're singing is pretty much the same old tune.

We are living in a time of change. If you want to win at this new game, then you must change with the times. The rhetoric that's coming from those of you (DAL pilots) posting on these boards reflects the same old worn out attitudes that contribute to the current difficulties. If you play a more modern song, the rest of us might be willing to Dance with you. I urge you to accept that the Foxtrot is out. The beat of your current tune sounds more like war drums than a recall.

If you beat the drums of war too long, when the music stops you may find that you are the one's without a chair.

 

[General Lee]

Surplus1,

I can see that you are trying to defend your position, and it works to a point. You have to remember that we hold all of the cards right now. We have a contract that, even admitted to by Leo and our CFO Michele Burns, does not have to be opened until 2005. Delta is under pressure from Wall Street and pressures from other lower cost airlines. So, if they want anything, they will have to give a lot. That is the way it is---like it or not. There are many many things that Delta wants:

1) More than the allotted 57 70 seaters ----negotiations otherwise will be finished in mid 2007 to get more of them

2) increased productivity of current mainline pilots----if there is 1 furloughed pilot on the street, our contract states that our pilots cannot fly over 75 hours per month---including CRAF flying----that is very UN-productive---but protects against unjustified furloughs

3) Lower pay rates---we are by far the highest paid pilots now on average. They want to lower it because we are higher than everyone else around us----but that wasn't the case 12 months ago--but now it is

4) Different work rules----they probably want to have extra hours for Song trips--giving more flexibility. They probably also want a different pay rate for Song, but the more hours you fly make up the difference--higher productivity---that is what happened at Express-- I remember flying 93 hours one month---actually flying with no credit.

So, you see what they want. Why would the company be eager to incur the additional costs of mainline pilots flying the CRJ70s? Well, they would save a lot of money by countering some of those problems above. Do you see what the Delta pilots could "give" that they cannot already get from us? Can you see it now? We have a lot that they want. Wall Street is banging on Leo's door. We have 1060 pilots out that could easily fly some of those 70 seaters---they would love it. As retirements grow, they will flow back into the 737-600's we'll get in 2006 or so. Then ASA pilots will flow into the 70 seaters or go to the 737's etc....This really isn't about you against me---it is trying to get back 1060 pilots that should be flying right now. Comair won't let them in the natural way at the BOTTOM of their list, so we will push for them to fly some EXTRA 70 seaters possibly. The extra costs will be over shadowed by the extra benefits of productivity, possibly slight wage cuts (maybe forgoing our May contractual pay raises---maybe twice). We already helped them out with the codeshare deal, and they were very appreciative---but now we want something for our guys.

I am really not concerned too much with United and their LCC. Their idea is a lot different than Song's--they will fly through their hubs. Their products will become confusing----where does each passenger go in the terminals---is it United Shuttle or United Express?? (The passengers will ask) And, to top it off, United really isn't doing well right now (they are losing $10 million a day still, and cannot hedge fuel. The war won't start for 2 or 3 more weeks, helping them lose alot more until then) They have no leadership and no focus right now. It really is sad. Their codename for their LCC is Starfish----which is what people in the 60's and 70's called an Anus.

So, Surplus1, I hope you see where we are coming from. We have to do something with our furloughs---and we hold the cards to when they will be coming back. Sure, the arbitrator said awhile, but we really control that now. We could say, "How about the next 50 70 seaters go to 'Dance' and then the remainder of the 57 go to DCI later--that way we could get some of our furloughs back sooner, and DCI doesn't get smaller--but eventually grows later." Air Canada has mainline and Jazz RJ's.

Dalpa is meeting with Delta on Tuesday to get a "look over" on the industry and discuss basic stuff. If there will be future negotiations--I am sure the furloughs will be included in any plan, and pay rates will have snapbacks.

Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[rjcap]

and we hold the cards to when they will be coming back

If you held anything you wouldn't be in the position you are now.

 

[General Lee]

RJCAP,

What? What are you talking about? We won the arbitration hearing, but it took 15 months. Delta is looking for pay cuts and possible productivity changes, and we have a contract---which will have to be negotiated in our favor or no deal. Do you think we will give it all away and not get something? Come on, get a clue man! We are still the highest paid, and we will eventually get back our furloughs. 9-11 happened and that really was a shock to the industry--we had some furloughs and they will eventually come back. Did you see 9-11 coming? No one did. I really think we will negotiate something that will bring them back sooner than later---and in our favor. Otherwise, our negotiators will be out of jobs quickly. Delta is doing better financially than any other major (besides Southwest) and that is good for you and me. We will do even better when the war is over and the economy rebounds. Any more questions?

Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[cl65@350]

Wow! I am very impressed with the Generals comments...It is funny, it reminds me of when I was in college, and there were a lot of new freshman that came to classes arrogantly thinking that they had the answers to all the worlds problems...the professor (or General in this case) would simply smile and very calmly let them know how it REALLY was out there! He was not antagonistic, but very smart and calculated. He never wasted a sentence, for he spoke using every word with thought and precision.

It is very easy to see from these discussions who the professor is and who the students are...Please keep up the good work General and keep up your highly intelligent rhetoric!

p.s. I am not being sarcastic either, I am truly impressed with the patience and restraint the General has displayed on this topic and many others...I can only imagine if I were that professor, I would have a nervous breakdown dealing with all of these students!!