VOR/NDB on field - Vectors?

minitour

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Any time I shot an approach with the navaid on the field, it was the full procedure or it had a published FAF and we got vectors.

Is it possible to get vectors to an approach without a published FAF and the navaid on the field?

If no...thanks.

If yes...please continue:

How would that clearance work? When would you start down? Anything else I'm missing?

Thanks!

-mini
 

GravityHater

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I have (in training) and I do think it is legal if they have you on radar til established.
"Nwxyz, fly heading 030, maintain 3000 til established, cleared VORDME 6 approach into Blahsville."
This would be while you are 10 miles out and at a decent altitude - you fly the 030 til the needle centers at which point you are established and descend to the published altitude.

I don't see how you could do step downs on an NDB or nonDME approach unless they were radar identified for you.
 

gkrangers

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http://204.108.4.16/d-tpp/0510/00692V13.PDF

No FAF.

I've gotten radar vectors to final. The clearance was probably "fly heading ### and maintain 1600 until established on the final approach course, cleared VOR 13 approach"

I guess I would use the 10 miles from the navaid, 10 degrees from the final approach course, and cleared for the approach "rule" as for when to start my descent.
 

MauleSkinner

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I've been vectored onto an NDB approach...they vectored me to intercept the final approach bearing inbound, and said "you're 9 from RYV (I think it was)...cleared for the NDB approach"

Basically, if they're vectoring you, they also have the capability to tell you when you're inside the 10 mile limit for the procedure turn.

Fly safe!

David
 

gkrangers

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MauleSkinner said:
I've been vectored onto an NDB approach...they vectored me to intercept the final approach bearing inbound, and said "you're 9 from RYV (I think it was)...cleared for the NDB approach"

Basically, if they're vectoring you, they also have the capability to tell you when you're inside the 10 mile limit for the procedure turn.

Fly safe!

David
Yeah, they'll give you the distance from the navaid...since obviously you are in radar contact for the vector...so thats how you know..
 

minitour

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gkrangers said:
Yeah, they'll give you the distance from the navaid...since obviously you are in radar contact for the vector...so thats how you know..
Awesome...that's what I needed to know.

Thanks guys!

-mini
 

Flechas

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minitour said:
When would you start down? Anything else I'm missing?

Thanks!

-mini
You can start down when you are within 10 NM (most the time, some times is 5 or 15, whatever is in the approach plate, you have positive guidance(within 10 degrees), and you are cleared for the approac)). To remember this I use "10, 10, and clear".

Si that's the FAF unless the approach has a maltese cross. Sometimes when the approach has a GPS overlay, it will show a FAF, but unless that FAF has a maltese cross, it only aplies to the GPS approach, not the VOR or NDB (In that case you use 10, 10 and clear)
 

gkrangers

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Flechas said:
You can start down when you are within 10 NM (most the time, some times is 5 or 15, whatever is in the approach plate, you have positive guidance(within 10 degrees), and you are cleared for the approac)). To remember this I use "10, 10, and clear".

Si that's the FAF unless the approach has a maltese cross. Sometimes when the approach has a GPS overlay, it will show a FAF, but unless that FAF has a maltese cross, it only aplies to the GPS approach, not the VOR or NDB (In that case you use 10, 10 and clear)
Holy crap I was right!
 

Gutenberg

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Legally, ATC is not to vector you for an approach that doesn't have an FAF. That does not mean they won't. I had a long discussion with a FED in charge of ATC about this one. If it's a terminating approach, you're supposed to do the course reversal. I've been denied vectors and given them on the same approach on seperate days with different controllers. It seems they are fuzzy on this one too.
 

DGdaPilot

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Where in the regs does it comment on this "10, 10, and clear" rule?? I've never heard of that.
 

Fly_Chick

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Per what Flechas said 10, 10 and clear is an easier way to remember when you can descend on your approach. It is not a "rule" nor is it the regs, just a way for some people to help remember.

10 - 10 nm or whichever appropriate published portion on the approach plate

10 - 10 degrees of final approach course or positive course guidance

Clear - cleared for the approach by ATC
 

TankerDriver

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http://204.108.4.16/d-tpp/0511/05459VG17.PDF

I have gotten vectors to final on this one numerous times, but the majority of the times I shot this approach we did the full procedure (for training purposes). From what I can remember, ATC would say, "You're 7 miles from the field, turn left heading 210, maintain 1,600 until established, cleared for the VOR 17 approach.". Although there is not an FAF, there is an FAP (final approach point). Definition:

"FINAL APPROACH POINT- The point, applicable only to a nonprecision approach with no depicted FAF (such as an on airport VOR), where the aircraft is established inbound on the final approach course from the procedure turn and where the final approach descent may be commenced. The FAP serves as the FAF and identifies the beginning of the final approach segment."
 
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