VMC Rollover, ever done it?

[PropsForward]

I also like to teach VMC as an emergency, much like a stall. I found that most people I run into sees VMC as a checkride procedure to demonstrate loss of directional control and thats it.

So, I like to teach a simulated go-around at altitude with a pilot, get them near stall, then have them go around. I fail an engine and look for the VMC recovery. I do it on stall recovery as well.

 

[TDTURBO]

You also need to realize that you are most likely learning how to fly a machine that your instructor can barely fly himself.

One of the most true and frightening statements I have ever read.

 

[minitour]

One of the most true and frightening statements I have ever read.

...you must have missed the thread about flying a 182RG in known ice...

(I'm just f*ckin with ya)

-mini

 

[DaveJ]

Newton's Laws must be respected.

[font=helvetica,geneva,arial]I. Every object in a state of uniform motion tends to remain in that state of motion unless an external force is applied to it.

[/font]One of the reasons a spin is more dangerous in a twin is because of the mass of the engines out on the wings make it much more difficult to stop the spin's rotation.

 

[paulsalem]

At our flight school we do not do full stalls in our Baron 55. (It may even be against our training regs.) I've talked to many MEIs and they say its too risky. However, if you retarted both throttles to idle, stalled the plane then recovered holding off on the power until above Safe Single Engine Speed I don't see the problem. I guess the biggest risk would be an ucoordianted stall.

I've talked to some NJA IPs who have to stall test their A/C after MS is done to the leading edge bleed air anti-ice system to reconfigure the stall warning system. And they have to do full stalls.

I'm going for my MEI right now so any comments would be helpful.

 

[CarjCapt]

Baron 55

About 30 years ago, while living in KMCI, there was a crash of a Baron 55 that was doing VMC demos with a student and a very experienced instructor.

The aircraft was found in a fully developed corn field and the corn wasn't disturbed in any direction around the aircraft. That, ladies and gentlemen, is the results of a VMC demo gone bad and the aircraft going into a flat spin.

It is valid to do VMC demos but the results of going any further than just a demo can take you into the experimental catagory.

 

[avbug]

Stalls in a multi engine airplane are a non-issue, so long as they are performed symmetrically. An assymetrical thrust situation in a stall can lead to trouble, and there is no good reason to perform it.

Why not perform loss of control demonstrations to a full loss of control? Isnt' that a little like asking why not try cocaine to learn why one shouldn't take it? Or getting shot in the leg to learn that firearms really can hurt you?

We teach kids to say no, to not try the coke. We teach range safety to preclude getting shot. That ought to do.

Years ago, multi engine training did include pushing Vmc and doing single engine stalls. A truism is that more people were getting killed doing training than in actual engine failure scenarios. Today, we rightly concentrate on taking the appropriate action at the first sign of a control loss, rather than waiting until it's out of control to do something.

When I was doing structure fire, we were put twice a year through what was called a Swede Prop, also called a Flashover simulator. A flashover occurs when the ambient temperature in a structure or environment reaches a point at which everything begins to burn simultaneously. Usually at a minimum of about eleven hundred degrees F. The atmosphere around you burns, the fuels ignite, everything burns. It's beautiful to watch, but deadly, and unsurvivable.

In the swede prop. we were put in an environment in which it got really hot. Our helmets were too hot to touch for some time after we exited the container. The air in our SCBA tanks was very hot; it sometimes hurt to breathe. I saw masks melted, and nomex burned off of people's faces with some mild second degree burning beneath. To say it was realistic and intense might be an understatement. It was also a thing of beauty. The air around us caught fire in what were referred to as "snake flames;" the atmosphere merely began burning, and soon everything around us was burning. We felt thermal expansion of water in the heat, the steam burning, watched the effects of upsetting the thermal balance, and even watched a firehose contribute to and ignite the fire...and as the water left the hose and turned to oxygen and hydrogen, we saw water appear to burn.

We didn't go in there to practice surviving a flashover. We went in there for one reason,and one reason only. To recognize the signs of rollover, heat, thermal balance, and other things that are encountered in a hot environment leading up to a flashover. We learned to turn our heads and feel the burning in our ears as a sign of what was coming. We learned the sights, the sounds, the circumstances the contributing factors. We sat through hours of class before and after, watched filsm of burned firefighters who died in flashovers, listed to the testimonies of their buddies on the line.

Our sole reason for being there was to recognize the flashover before it happened, and to get out. That was it. Hours of training and intensity burned down to one thing; recognize it and get out.

Training for Vmc is the same way. Vmc can kill you, even in training. You have one mission in life for the period of time in which you train in that one, important maneuver. Recognize the signs and stop it before it starts. No need to burn in, no need to roll over, no need to lose control. You have one reason for drawing breath and for living when you teach that to a student; to teach the student to recognize the situation reduce power on the good engine(s), and to reduce the angle of attack. Your one purpose for drawing breath and for living when you teach this exercise is to provide the student the resources to recognize Vmc and to have the privilege of drawing breath himself or herself after the fact.

 

[paulsalem]

AV bug do you have a link to a video of any of this (flashover)? Sounds pretty cool, doesn't sound like somthing I'd want to be in the middle of.

Pardon my vast ignorace, but does anyone do aerobatics in a piston twin?

 

[avbug]

I don't know of any particular videos detailing flashovers, but I'm sure they're out there. There was one particular training film that was regularly shown, and I'm sure is available from the industry, though I don't have it. It detailed a several alarm fire that put four firefighters inside a wearhouse, fighting a fire in an office at the rear. They knocked it down, thought they had the fire, and were exiting the building when it flashed. One made it to a doorway, all four died where they stood, and the clothing, including all their heavy turnout fire resistant gear, was vaporized off their bodies. their SCBA packs fell on the ground, the straps holding them in place simply gone. The most striking picture fo the entire presentation was what was left of their uniforms and gear arranged just as they'd have worn it, one alongside the other, on the ground. They were fried.

Somoeone sitting alongside me asks "what's the deal with the vaporized uniforms...how can they be arranged on the ground if they're vaporized?"

Rather than come back to explain that, I'll do so now. The packs fell off their bodies, and their turnout gear was destroyed, right down to melted and burned helmets. The straps holding on their gear were completely burned up, and the tattered remains of those four firefighters were arranged in the same position on the ground for the film that they would have been had the entire corpse been there, still wearing the gear...except no corpse. The bodies weren't vaporized, but what was left of them had been trucked away...the scene was still very sobering.

Someone else loaned me a video, though I'm sure it's not on the web, detailing the use of nomex in aircraft flash fires. I found it very convincing. It's an older army video detailing an incident that took place during the vietnam conflict. The person who loaned it to me noted a certain distain I had for full personal protective equipment in a hot cockpit, and wanted to see if the video might encourage me to wear everything...it did. I do.

I know that Bob Hoover did his routine in the Shrike Commander with both engines, then one shut down, and finally both shut down. I've seen other piston acts at airshows over the years in piston twins. There is no good reason why an aerobatic act can't be done in a piston twin, any more than a piston single, but certainly greater care must be taken, and greater potential for rapid change is there in the event of an engine failure. I've seen it done in a cri-cri, and other novelty acts, as well as certificated aircraft. I even saw a man with no legs perform an airshow act in a Cessna 337 mixmaster.

 

[KeroseneSnorter]

a question.. why is a multi so much more difficult to deal with in stalls, spins? My instructor never let us get anywhere near a full stall or spin in our geronimo, but never really explained why a spin was so much more dangerous in twin..? Does retarding the throttles, level wings, and forward elevator not work as well for some reason? Or does it just take a lot more altitude?

Most light twins have the tendancy to go flat in a spin. Once it does go flat, you may or may not be able to recover. And even if it is recoverable, it eats up a lot of altitude doing it.

 

[avbug]

Perhaps the most poignant reason for not engaging in spins in these aircraft is that they were never demonstrated, nor designed, to be capable of engaging in spins. Someone already mentioned the mass outside of center that contributes to staying in the spin, and resists spin recovery. The bottom line is that these airplanes, most light twins, haven't been shown capable of entering anything more than an incipient spin, and recoverying. Why would you underake the project of experimenting to find out the reason?

 

[jetdriven]

the vmc is at a lower airspeed at higher altitiudes. Which means the airplane stalls first and then Vmc's. Even more dangerous than doing them at 3000 AGL (where you run out of rudder while still flying) , which is recommended in the FTH and the Be-55 baron POH.

Back when I was working on my MEI, I did have the PA-23 Apache start to do a VMC rollover on me. It got to about 60 degree of bank before I got enough rudder authority get control back. Needless to say, that scared the CRAP out of me. I wouldn't want to ever do a full VMC rollover unless I had at least 10,000' and I am not sure if i would really want to.

 

[Propsync]

Didn't enough people die figuring out what the future red line meant?

Don't do it, enough already.

 

[CFIcare]

Unless my memory is just plain wrong, I remember that none of the multi-engine aircraft certified in the last 40+ years have never been tested and certified for spins of any kind.

Again from memory, Piper did some spin test with the then new PA-30 (twin comanche) and found it took in excess of 10000 feet to recover.

Some one with a better memory please correct me if I'm wrong.

----
You are right. I know the guy who spin tested it. In fact, he did a *single engine* spin recovery too. I kid you not. The results of these tests are why subsequent twins were never certified. Why even go there, ya know?

Incidentally, this same guy said that they only thing that scared him worse than that was doing a 20 turn spin...at night.

 

[Rather-B-Flying]

Im not so sure its too smart to do this intentionally. Though Im still in my comercial muli training, everyone Ive talked to said its nothing to mess around with. Back in May 2004 a Seminole from my school went down with 3 souls while doing a Vmc demo. The NTSB investigation is still ongoing, but they believe this is what caused the pilot to loose control. you can read the NTSB report here http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20040522X00631&key=1

 

[JAFI]

I don't have the stats handy, but from memory light aircraft multi-training is the most dangerous training you can do. You are taking a "underpowered" aircraft and pushing the limits (climb) on any type of recovery. I am very much opposed to any "observers" in the back seat. With only two people the climb is marginal (if any at all) and with three people the CG moves aft (read flatter spin) and with any engine failure you have 200 lbs more of dead weight to make even less performance and more deadly.

Most turbo props and light jets have a greater SE climb but I would never take either to a full VMC demo.

As I recall, Most light twin training accidents - everyone dies.

My suggestion, Just Say NO.

JAFI

 

[Rather-B-Flying]

Vmc SCARY!

Today I had an experience I hope I never have again.. I was with my instructor in the practice area in a Beechcraft Duchess (twin) doing slow flight (clean)....

Since it is for my commercial certificate, he wanted the better then pts, so he had me fly at the stall warning horn the whole time, after about 5 mins of this we moved on to stalls, steep turns, and then back to slow flight (dirty).

I was under the hood and had no reference to the horizon... I kept pitching up for the stall warning horn, but it never sounded. I kept the airplane between 45-50kts, it didnt feel right but we still had positive performance so i carried on. I kept glancing at my airspeed indicator but it just didnt register at the time but we were WAY below Vso at 65.

My instructor had me initiate a 10 degree bank turn to the right, and then it happened, we rolled over, I wasnt sure what was happening... I just saw my instructor grab both mixtures and bring them to idle cutoff......I fugured something wasn right so I said YOUR CONTROLS! and I threw my hands off the yoke and took off my hood... we were pointed straight down.... He was able to regain control after loosing 1500 ft, luckily we were over 7000 agl when this happened. I attribute the fact that were are still alive to my instructors quick reflexes... and knowing exactly what to to.

Suprisingly there was no panic from either of us... we both reverted to our training, and knew exactly what to do (I let go, and he took control), though he has never done that before. When we got on the ground we checked both stall warning horns..... neither one of them worked, we checked the breaker.. .and it was popped.... it seems while riding the horn durring slow flight earlier we had shorted the system.

 

[KeroseneSnorter]

Today I had an experience I hope I never have again.. I was with my instructor in the practice area in a Beechcraft Duchess (twin) doing slow flight (clean)....

Since it is for my commercial certificate, he wanted the better then pts, so he had me fly at the stall warning horn the whole time, after about 5 mins of this we moved on to stalls, steep turns, and then back to slow flight (dirty).

I was under the hood and had no reference to the horizon... I kept pitching up for the stall warning horn, but it never sounded. I kept the airplane between 45-50kts, it didnt feel right but we still had positive performance so i carried on. I kept glancing at my airspeed indicator but it just didnt register at the time but we were WAY below Vso at 65.

My instructor had me initiate a 10 degree bank turn to the right, and then it happened, we rolled over, I wasnt sure what was happening... I just saw my instructor grab both mixtures and bring them to idle cutoff......I fugured something wasn right so I said YOUR CONTROLS! and I threw my hands off the yoke and took off my hood... we were pointed straight down.... He was able to regain control after loosing 1500 ft, luckily we were over 7000 agl when this happened. I attribute the fact that were are still alive to my instructors quick reflexes... and knowing exactly what to to.

Suprisingly there was no panic from either of us... we both reverted to our training, and knew exactly what to do (I let go, and he took control), though he has never done that before. When we got on the ground we checked both stall warning horns..... neither one of them worked, we checked the breaker.. .and it was popped.... it seems while riding the horn durring slow flight earlier we had shorted the system.

BOTH MIXTURES TO IDLE CUTOFF!!!!!!

Tell me you mistyped that and meant throttles to idle.

 

[Rather-B-Flying]

he brought both mixtures to idle cutoff...... i asked him about this later.. he said he did it as to not fight for control of the throttles with me.......

 

[KeroseneSnorter]

he brought both mixtures to idle cutoff...... i asked him about this later.. he said he did it as to not fight for control of the throttles with me.......

HMMM, my BS detector is beeping.....as in he grabbed the wrong handles in the excitement......but I wasn't there so we will go with his story.

Just as a thought for you from another MEI, generally you should not create a second emergency while correcting the first one, but as I said I was not there and you may be three times his size for all I know, making his ability to overpower your Hulk like grasp on the throttles difficult!

End result worked though..........and that is what counts!


By the way, if you liked the feeling, go take a few aerobatic lessons. Nothing like an hour or so upside down to clear the head!

Now if I can just find that job that will pay for a Pitts, all will be right in my world!!!!