VMC Rollover, ever done it?

[88_MALIBU]

Has anyone actually ever experienced this at altitude? I am wondering if there is somewhere you can go with professionals that will show it to you with safety and control. Is there such a thing with VMC?> The reason I ask is, when getting ME training we are only allowed to go so far before we retard the throttle. I dont plan on getting in a expensive sim anytime soon, so thats out... Just wondering if it is indeed recoverable once you go over and how much altitude it would take. Not having an MEI, I have no experience teaching in twins.

 

[mnixon]

I know of a certain DPE who would do it with applicants in the old seminoles. With the new seminole the 430 doesnt handle inverted ops well so he doesnt do it anymore. I think it should be shown to every student so they can recognize the "point of no return". But keep in mind this should only be done by someone who is EXTREMELY familiar with the a/c as well as the maneuver,

 

[88_MALIBU]

I agree, I was told I was crazy by another CFI for wanting to understand it more... I dont plan on doing it, I just dont know much about it-what it feels like. At least in aerobatics they show you the maneuvers... If anyone knows where this type of real world stuff is taught I am interested in hearing.

 

[Sig]

I know of a certain DPE who would do it with applicants in the old seminoles. With the new seminole the 430 doesnt handle inverted ops well so he doesnt do it anymore. I think it should be shown to every student so they can recognize the "point of no return". But keep in mind this should only be done by someone who is EXTREMELY familiar with the a/c as well as the maneuver,

Er hmm
ErHMM HMM HMM

**HAbullschitt!!!**

There are too many holes in this single paragraph than even I can let slide. Since some folks around here (not really you two, but somebody reading this) are potentially smoking holes themelves, lemme illustrate:

1. Who cares if there is in fact some silly rogue DPE that lets you get cat-arsed in a Vmc demo?

2. However, I care if you BS about some mythical DPE that supposedly espouses turtling an older Seminole versus a new one becauuuusssssssssse:
a. They have a further aft CG
b. The 430 can be switched off
c. Somebody might think they know what they're doing and try it.


Learn a few more facts before dropping silliness like this.

The Seminole will Vmc. You can lose control, you can go into a flat spin. The likelihood of this happening is higher in an older model; worrying about the avionics in the newer one shows a tremendously misplaced sense of mortality. That, and a fScking moron behind the yoke.

The two instructors I've compared notes with on spinning Seminoles (yes, you can recover- only my former roommate didn't recover one time AND THAT'S WHY I'M ANGRY) all have the same story: a military pilot arm-locked on the demo, it turtled in about two seconds, and the next thing you know you're blasting through Vne because it was a nose-heavy (thanks, Garmin!!) new model. Antispin inputs are almost instantaneous, and recovery is more of a function of a shallow pullout than stopping the spin. The mode is very nose down, mostly roll.

I get very, very angry about this topic. There is ZERO reason to show some kind of "point of no return." Why be able to recognize it? POINTLESS. It is part of some silly half-baked curriculum that short-changes a multiengine student, espoused by the hangar-flying mouthbreathers. Yes, I'm MAD about it!

Wanna be effective as an MEI? Get your students so jacked up, ready for a failure on each takeoff that they think that a takeoff where everything works is weird. Sound goofy? That's how them [us] fellers in the 121 world do it.

Sorry for ranting, it wasn't personal. You were looking for some input, you got some, but I really hope nobody got some ideas on how to add some spice to their lesson plans.

 

[wheelsup]

Get your students so jacked up, ready for a failure on each takeoff that they think that a takeoff where everything works is weird.

What's funny about that statement is I had a student actually pull the throttles and call abort on me the other day, without me failing anything - he was so paranoid about me failing the engines. It works though - they stay on their toes .

~wheelsup

 

[Sig]

Sorry about the p!ssy rant.


A few Negra Modelos....

 

[Thedude]

Back when I was working on my MEI, I did have the PA-23 Apache start to do a VMC rollover on me. It got to about 60 degree of bank before I got enough rudder authority get control back. Needless to say, that scared the CRAP out of me. I wouldn't want to ever do a full VMC rollover unless I had at least 10,000' and I am not sure if i would really want to.

 

[mnixon]

But keep in mind this should only be done by someone who is EXTREMELY familiar with the a/c as well as the maneuver,

Theres my disclaimer....I have never done it and never will but there are some that might want to, and if it is safe why not. Don't get out of line on me and say I am blowing smoke because you have an opinion.

 

[rubberducky]

Not to sound like one of those old timers, "let me tell ya son...", but here’s my .02. I experienced this one time inadvertently and believe me you don't want to try this! Through my own stupidity I let a student demonstrate Vmc too far and next thing I know, we went through 120 degrees of bank. I retarded both throttles and rolled it back to wings level (performed an inadvertent barrel roll). I was instructing aerobatics at the time as well and to compare the two I would say this. It wasn't as rapid as say a snap roll, but it was quicker than a barrel roll, either way though it scared the schiit out of me...

 

[88_MALIBU]

Thanks alot guys. This is exactly the kind of replies I was looking for.