Virgin America Skirting Ownership Rules To Survive !!

[Ralph Cramden]

Against my better judgment I get drug into this flame fest...

Clickclick: Yes, the DOT denied the disclosure appeal. Yes, the stats will be made public in a few days. The stats have been filed all along, just not made public pending the appeal. Private companies in other industries, and private airlines in other countries do not disclose for competitive reasons. The DOT rules allowed for a non disclosure request and an appeal process, the company (along with others) used the rules to their advantage. The DOT and the investors have had access to the info all along, so all that will change is that witch in MSY will have something to talk about.

As to your "insider info" on ticket purchase manipulation, please share with the class or call the DOT if you have facts. Otherwise, your comments are a pile of manure. To say that the company is "skirting the rules" is misleading and false.

Pilotboob: Well well, the barnyard is complete, the big a$$ has arrived. In this economy I sure hope you don't wind up unemployed.

 

[clickclickboom]

Honestly the intent of my post was not to bash your airline or to offend but I can see how you would take offense given your personal bias.

 

[hoover84]

http://www.regulations.gov/fdmspublic/component/main?main=DocumentDetail&o=090000648083eeda

This consent order concerns reporting delinquencies by Virgin America Inc. (Virgin America) that constitute violations of 49 U.S.C. § 41708 and the accounting and reporting requirements specified in 14 CFR Part 241. This order directs Virgin America to cease and desist from future violations of this statute and this regulatory provision, and assesses the carrier a compromise civil penalty of $40,000. the DOT

 

[Flyiguy]

I wish for the demise of Virgin!

Coming from a Jetblue pilot........

 

[Pilotbob3]

Coming from a Jetblue pilot........

Pilots at every airline can have opinions right?

 

[Bavarian Chef]

Coming from a Jetblue pilot........

Now wait one minute ... JB is all growns up these days! We even have a CA or two making 180 grand hanging out here on flightinfo.

 

[clickclickboom]

And a few making 250k plus..

 

[Ralph Cramden]

And a few making 250k plus..

Hey, that's fantastic! Something we all should be able to achieve. More power to ya!

One question though. How much did said B6 drivers make during their first year?

 

[Pilotbob3]

Don't hate! LOL

 

[BeachBummer]

One question though. How much did said B6 drivers make during their first year?

How much did yer buddies at CAL, DAL, SWA, ext... make their first year? When the airline was less than 9 years old? Just wondering?

 

[ualdriver]

Hey, that's fantastic! Something we all should be able to achieve. More power to ya!

One question though. How much did said B6 drivers make during their first year?

Their Captains made about $100/hr with no retirement at all if memory serves, with work rules basically being FAR's? Of course, that's when the rest of the industry's airbus sized Captains were making around $220/hr. + very nice pension + great work rules. The hourly rates might be off a bit as time has passed since those days, but that's probably pretty close.

That was what, 8 years ago? So in today's dollars, in order to make a fair comparison, JetBlue's Captains in 2000 were making around $126.00/hr., assuming 3% inflation, compounded.

I guess now if a new airline wants to build market share, the going narrowbody Captain rate is $95/hr in 2008/2009-ish dollars?

At that rate, that should put the NEXT generation of new LCC Airbus/narrowbody Captains (i.e. the ones that need to build market share at Virgin America's expense in about 7 or 8 years from now) at around $60-70 bucks an hour in today's dollars.

 

[clickclickboom]

Hey, that's fantastic! Something we all should be able to achieve. More power to ya!

One question though. How much did said B6 drivers make during their first year?

Like a soldier running for his life shooting bullets aimlessly behind him...

Almost Comical

 

[joevollers]

Their Captains made about $100/hr with no retirement at all if memory serves, with work rules basically being FAR's? Of course, that's when the rest of the industry's airbus sized Captains were making around $220/hr. + very nice pension + great work rules. The hourly rates might be off a bit as time has passed since those days, but that's probably pretty close.

That was what, 8 years ago? So in today's dollars, in order to make a fair comparison, JetBlue's Captains in 2000 were making around $126.00/hr., assuming 3% inflation, compounded.

I guess now if a new airline wants to build market share, the going narrowbody Captain rate is $95/hr in 2008/2009-ish dollars?

At that rate, that should put the NEXT generation of new LCC Airbus/narrowbody Captains (i.e. the ones that need to build market share at Virgin America's expense in about 7 or 8 years from now) at around $60-70 bucks an hour in today's dollars.

Actually,
JB started at 90... compounded anually that would be about 110 in today's dollars.

To compare VA to JB is a bit unfair. Back in 2000, a second year 767 FO for Delta could make 140/hour. Name one place THAT IS HIRING that anyone can go to that anyone can come close to that in year 2.

The payscales at VA were created based upon the current Market, not the 2000 market. A lot of pilot groups gave back between then and now, and that cannot be appropriately blamed on JetBlue. However, if it makes people feel better to blame others for their concerns...have at it.

 

[AAflyer]

Virgin America has lost $270M

San Francisco Business Times - by Eric Young

In its first earnings report in more than a year, Virgin America Inc. said it lost $175.4 million over the first three quarters of 2008.

The Burlingame-based airline booked $259.6 million in revenue during the same period.

When added to figures from 2007, Virgin America has lost $270.2 million on sales of $311.7 million since it began service in August 2007.

Virgin America officials said the figures were in line with expectations for the startup company, which employs about 1,200 people at San Francisco International Airport and elsewhere around the country.

“This is an industry with very high start-up costs and where large first year-losses are common,” said David Cush, Virgin America’s president and CEO. “We’re confident in our business model and are in a strong position as a well-financed start-up with solid revenue growth and load factors.”

Cush said the airline anticipates being profitable in 2010 and might even record profitable quarters this year.

Virgin America said its load factor — a measure of how many seats are sold on each flight — increased during the first three quarters of 2008 to reach 81.4 percent, slightly higher than the broader industry figure.

U.S. airlines make their financial data available to the public throughout the year under U.S. Department of Transportation rules. But Virgin America kept its financial figures confidential until this week, arguing to federal transportation officials that release of the information would cause substantial harm to the startup airline. Virgin America said that if rival airlines saw its numbers, those carriers could use the data to their competitive advantage.

The Department of Transportation last week rejected Virgin America’s request, leading to the release of the data. Until this week, the only other financial figures that were available from Virgin America had been numbers from the third quarter of 2007, the first quarter of the airline’s operations.

Privately-held Virgin America is owned in part by British entrepreneur Richard Branson, who also operates Virgin Atlantic Airways Ltd. of London and Virgin Blue of Australia. The majority of the airline’s shares are controlled by U.S. private equity firms Black Canyon Capital LLC and Cyrus Capital Partners.

Virgin America has lined up about $500 million so far from Branson’s Virgin Group Ltd. and the U.S. private equity firms.

Virgin America flies its 26 aircraft to eight cities, including San Francisco, Los Angeles, Las Vegas, New York City and Washington, D.C. The airline will add flights to Boston this month and to Orange County in April.


[email protected] / (415) 288-4969

 

[ualdriver]

Actually,
JB started at 90... compounded anually that would be about 110 in today's dollars.

To compare VA to JB is a bit unfair. Back in 2000, a second year 767 FO for Delta could make 140/hour. Name one place THAT IS HIRING that anyone can go to that anyone can come close to that in year 2.

The payscales at VA were created based upon the current Market, not the 2000 market. A lot of pilot groups gave back between then and now, and that cannot be appropriately blamed on JetBlue. However, if it makes people feel better to blame others for their concerns...have at it.

JB was 90/hr. back then? That's worse than what I remember. Still, $110 in 2008 dollars vs. $95/hr in 2008 dollars. No problems there? Is that adequate compensation for an A320 Captain? It's OK for VA to do it because JB did? Apparently you think so?

To compare JB with VA is unfair? Hardly. VA is following the model that was wildly successful for JB- pay low wages with happy, perky employees to help undercut the competition, buy shiny new narrowbody aircraft with cool technology, and operate in a hub with good O&D traffic and no direct low fare competition. They also both started when the airline industry was doing well (2000 vs. 2007). Sounds pretty familiar to me.

Unfortunately, I don't have the time or the energy to go into a multi-page thread (again) as to why I think LCC's such as Virgin America, Skybus, etc., put unnecessary downward pressure on pilot wages. I'll cede to you that Virgin America pilots are properly compensated, that $95/hr. is a good, fair wage for an A320 Captain, and that a growing, thriving Virgin America, Skybus, or whoever with wages such as those are a GOOD thing for the piloting profession. Low pilot wages elsewhere in the industry will not have any affect on my future earnings and there are no examples of that happening in our industry in the past. It makes me feel better to blame others for my concerns.