Virgin America Reports 2009 2Qt

[ualdriver]

Talk about posting when drunk, you're saying its VA's fault your airline cannot raise fares??? Lets just throw out the economy, scope or lack of, Tilton etc etc etc as factors of your demise...its all VA's fault.

I didn't say it was all VA's fault, but they're certainly trashing the possibility of ANYONE making money on Bay area O&D routes they fly on. VA does, however, represent what is wrong with the airline industry. They're dumping capacity into markets that don't need the extra seats. In order to gain market share, instead of competing on the quality of their product, they offer low prices that THEY can't even make money on. In order to protect market share, everyone operating on that city pair has to match VA's ridiculously low fares. Tell me where I'm wrong in that analysis.....or maybe I'm lying again. I lie all the time on this forum, you know.

Take a step back and look at what the industry is collectively doing. There are too many seats so they're cutting capacity and trying to get fares up. Two fare increases have stuck recently. As a whole, we're trying to rationalize our industry.....except VA.

You mean the fare war WN creates when entering a new market or when Jwho copies whatever city pair VA announces. Look junior, bottom line is you sound like a certain Iranian dictator who blames the U.S. for every problem HE has in his country. Its everybodys fault but our own. I saw the writing on the wall 12 years ago or so when a certain exec from UA said "we are not a cargo carrier" and shut down a profitable DC10 operation. I got off when everybody else was trying to jump on the titanic. Cya

Yeah, I'm sure you were able to predict the downward spiral of UA 12 years ago....You could barely write in coherent sentences a few posts ago and now you're a soothsayer. OK. And you'll have to point out where I said VA is the reason for my airline's most recent decline. VA is trashing yields on the city-pairs that they're flying on and acting irresponsibly, however, all while producing huge losses that make Glenn Tilton blush.

Further, the difference between you guys and JetBlue is that if you take a peek at JetBlue's financials from earlier in the decade when they were just starting out, despite also growing into a declining economy, JetBlue was making money by this time in its existence. You guys, however, despite your pathetically low wages helping subsidize your bottom line, are still deep in the red. Don't worry, though, those $99 SFO-FLL fares should help.

Don't bother with the UA attacks in rebuttal in order to attack me instead of the facts concerning your airline. The difference between you and me is that I already know UA is a crappy carrier.

 

[jayme]

In order to gain market share, instead of competing on the quality of their product, they offer low prices that THEY can't even make money on.

Did you really just say that?

The quality is head and shoulders above any other airline out there. But if we charge a dollar more than everybody else, then we are on page 2 on the customer's Expedia search and the airplane goes out empty.

I'm not management, but even I can tell you have no idea what you're talking about. I think you're argument boils down to "WE WERE HERE FIRST!" Sorry sir, but that doesn't hold much water with me.

As for the crappy wages, I think we'll see them come up as soon as it's sustainable to do so, and if they don't we'll end up with a union. It's still more than I was making at United Express (thanks for selling out the profession, by the way...)

Good luck with your career. And I mean that.

 

[clickclickboom]

Did you really just say that?

The quality is head and shoulders above any other airline out there. But if we charge a dollar more than everybody else, then we are on page 2 on the customer's Expedia search and the airplane goes out empty.

I'm not management, but even I can tell you have no idea what you're talking about. I think you're argument boils down to "WE WERE HERE FIRST!" Sorry sir, but that doesn't hold much water with me.

As for the crappy wages, I think we'll see them come up as soon as it's sustainable to do so, and if they don't we'll end up with a union. It's still more than I was making at United Express (thanks for selling out the profession, by the way...)

Good luck with your career. And I mean that.

And therin lies the mentality that destroys this profession one new shiny jet at a time.

Not only are you rationalizing your insolvent airline by financing them with your substandard wages but you are using your onboard service as an excuse as well.

Tell your kid in 13 years that they need to take $400,000 in loans for an education because your job was at least better than united express. One good thing about this economy is all the trust fund brats are going broke and reality sets in when you realize that your meager $50,000 that you were using to play now has to feed your family

 

[ualdriver]

Did you really just say that?

The quality is head and shoulders above any other airline out there. But if we charge a dollar more than everybody else, then we are on page 2 on the customer's Expedia search and the airplane goes out empty.

I'm not management, but even I can tell you have no idea what you're talking about. I think you're argument boils down to "WE WERE HERE FIRST!" Sorry sir, but that doesn't hold much water with me.

As for the crappy wages, I think we'll see them come up as soon as it's sustainable to do so, and if they don't we'll end up with a union. It's still more than I was making at United Express (thanks for selling out the profession, by the way...)

Good luck with your career. And I mean that.

I don't need "luck." I need guys like you to stop undermining my contract. But thanks anyway.

You're telling me I sold out the profession? A VA pilot? Here's the difference.....when we made the mistake as mainline airline pilots of giving away RJ flying (your cited example), we didn't have the benefit of history and hindsight when making that decision. RJ's were new, and no one had any idea what the RJ flying would devolve too. So I sold out the profession because I didn't have a crystal ball???

You, on the other hand, know the damage the LCC's did to mainline wages and work rules. You saw that we all got DRAGGED DOWN to that lower denominator. You saw the pensions go away. You saw work rules get trashed, yet you decide to MAJORLY undercut A320/narrowbody wages even further because "it's better than UA Express." And the spiral continues...

So to recap, I look at history, see the mistakes we made, and won't make that mistake concerning RJ flying in the future (your example). You, on the other hand, look at history, see the mistakes were made with LCC wages and work rules, and then REPEAT THE SAME MISTAKE. Then YOU tell ME I'm selling out the profession. I guarantee you that if I lose my job at UA you won't see my application at VA because I know the damage that $95/hr. Captains causes the profession. It's just not worth it. You, OTH, happily submit yours and help with the downward spiral. I apparently learned from history and you didn't. I won't hold my breath about the VA pilots actually taking a stand and voting a union in, either.

I'm not management, but even I can tell you have no idea what you're talking about. I think you're argument boils down to "WE WERE HERE FIRST!" Sorry sir, but that doesn't hold much water with me.

The quality is head and shoulders above any other airline out there. But if we charge a dollar more than everybody else, then we are on page 2 on the customer's Expedia search and the airplane goes out empty.

You don't have to be management to log onto the BTS or read 10Q's. It's not rocket science. And you don't have to charge $1 more than anyone else. You also don't have to charge 50% less, either. If your product is so great, why the fare wars? Why the $99 to FLL that is a guaranteed money loser? Why not pay your employees, particularly the pilots, a fair market wage and charge fares that resemble the going rate and let your "superior product" win customers over?

The problem is VA is using classic techniques to steal market share that have been used over and over by the likes of Western Pacific, Vanguard, Skybus, and countless others that simply implode and make the airline industry the crappy industry that it is.

Here's the recipe:
1) Trick a bunch of people into fronting money for a "new and different" upstart airline
2) Hire non-union workers and pay them a fraction of the going rate
3) Buy a bunch of airplanes
4) Dump a bunch of seats into a market where those evil incumbent airlines are "charging too much."
5) Charge fares that NO ONE can make money on in the hope that you last longer than the incumbents
6) Hope that cash doesn't run out before "projected profitablility date" (yes, Cush said that too)
7) Said airline's employees come on flightinfo.com and tell us all how they're not undercutting the profession and/or have a great relationship with management and/or are home every night and/or tell us about the great strides their wages will make in the future (pick your favorites)
7) Crash and burn, taking a pound of flesh from your competitors with you.
8) Competitors left behind raise fares to profitable levels, and then upstart begins above at #1.

When VA starts paying its employees a market wage and charges fares that aren't starting inane fare wars, I'll accept the loss like a capitalist should.

 

[ualdriver]

Anyway, that above post was too long and I'm just repeating myself over and over. I'm done.

 

[chppr5]

I don't need "luck." I need guys like you to stop undermining my contract. But thanks anyway.

You're telling me I sold out the profession? A VA pilot? Here's the difference.....when we made the mistake as mainline airline pilots of giving away RJ flying (your cited example), we didn't have the benefit of history and hindsight when making that decision. RJ's were new, and no one had any idea what the RJ flying would devolve too. So I sold out the profession because I didn't have a crystal ball???

You, on the other hand, know the damage the LCC's did to mainline wages and work rules. You saw that we all got DRAGGED DOWN to that lower denominator. You saw the pensions go away. You saw work rules get trashed, yet you decide to MAJORLY undercut A320/narrowbody wages even further because "it's better than UA Express." And the spiral continues...

So to recap, I look at history, see the mistakes we made, and won't make that mistake concerning RJ flying in the future (your example). You, on the other hand, look at history, see the mistakes were made with LCC wages and work rules, and then REPEAT THE SAME MISTAKE. Then YOU tell ME I'm selling out the profession. I guarantee you that if I lose my job at UA you won't see my application at VA because I know the damage that $95/hr. Captains causes the profession. It's just not worth it. You, OTH, happily submit yours and help with the downward spiral. I apparently learned from history and you didn't. I won't hold my breath about the VA pilots actually taking a stand and voting a union in, either.



You don't have to be management to log onto the BTS or read 10Q's. It's not rocket science. And you don't have to charge $1 more than anyone else. You also don't have to charge 50% less, either. If your product is so great, why the fare wars? Why the $99 to FLL that is a guaranteed money loser? Why not pay your employees, particularly the pilots, a fair market wage and charge fares that resemble the going rate and let your "superior product" win customers over?

The problem is VA is using classic techniques to steal market share that have been used over and over by the likes of Western Pacific, Vanguard, Skybus, and countless others that simply implode and make the airline industry the crappy industry that it is.

Here's the recipe:
1) Trick a bunch of people into fronting money for a "new and different" upstart airline
2) Hire non-union workers and pay them a fraction of the going rate
3) Buy a bunch of airplanes
4) Dump a bunch of seats into a market where those evil incumbent airlines are "charging too much."
5) Charge fares that NO ONE can make money on in the hope that you last longer than the incumbents
6) Hope that cash doesn't run out before "projected profitablility date" (yes, Cush said that too)
7) Said airline's employees come on flightinfo.com and tell us all how they're not undercutting the profession and/or have a great relationship with management and/or are home every night and/or tell us about the great strides their wages will make in the future (pick your favorites)
7) Crash and burn, taking a pound of flesh from your competitors with you.
8) Competitors left behind raise fares to profitable levels, and then upstart begins above at #1.

When VA starts paying its employees a market wage and charges fares that aren't starting inane fare wars, I'll accept the loss like a capitalist should.

You didn't lie on that post!!! Well said........

 

[mvedepo]

5) Charge fares that NO ONE can make money on in the hope that you last longer than the incumbents
6) Hope that cash doesn't run out before "projected profitablility date" (yes, Cush said that too)

If NO ONE can make money on the fares we are charging then how could we EVER have a projected profitability date?

 

[jayme]

And therin lies the mentality that destroys this profession one new shiny jet at a time.

Not only are you rationalizing your insolvent airline by financing them with your substandard wages but you are using your onboard service as an excuse as well.

Everybody knows you can't start a brand new airline and pay legacy wages. Southwest didn't. JetBlue didn't. Air Tran didn't. So don't play dumb about us subsidizing the bottom line. We are spending huge dollars getting this company on it's feet. When we start making a little money they will have to pay up like JetBlue and Southwest or risk dealing with an angry union like AirTran.

On your last point: I don't know what you're saying about our service as an excuse for something.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

VA is trashing yields on the city-pairs that they're flying on and acting irresponsibly, however, all while producing huge losses that make Glenn Tilton blush.

11 Million in a quarter would make Tilton blush huh?? Right. Tilton blows 11 million a quarter on Courvosier to perfume his ass.

Enough with the hyperbole now, agreed???

 

[firstthird]

Everybody knows you can't start a brand new airline and pay legacy wages. Southwest didn't. JetBlue didn't. Air Tran didn't. So don't play dumb about us subsidizing the bottom line. We are spending huge dollars getting this company on it's feet. When we start making a little money they will have to pay up like JetBlue and Southwest or risk dealing with an angry union like AirTran.

On your last point: I don't know what you're saying about our service as an excuse for something.

jetblue, airtran, VA, none really followed the SWA model. Jetblue is as large after 10 years as SWA was after 25. SWA made money its first 37 years (we'll see about 38).

VA is more of jetblue, get big, fast; and deal with the fallout later. airtran not as much but some.

I know that SWA wages sit where they do today because of legacies and ALPA and I hope that the legacies and ALPA pass us again soon, as well as B6 and FL and VA.

in many ways UALdriver sees quite clearly. these startups or rebrands that flame out in 3 years with a few hundred million in VC capital have been killing the industry since 9/11. indy, skybus, now VA.

 

[Ralph Cramden]

these startups or rebrands that flame out in 3 years with a few hundred million in VC capital have been killing the industry since 9/11. indy, skybus, now VA.

Hey, at least the $350M we blew at Indy was made from UAL when we were a UAX carrier. It was painful to see a great group go down in flames, but we had a great time!

 

[front9]

And therin lies the mentality that destroys this profession one new shiny jet at a time.

Are you serious??? You went to work for JB to fly a shiny new airbus for piss poor wages at the time and you have the bollocks to throw stones at some other dude. Whats that word I'm looking for...hypo something.

Not only are you rationalizing your insolvent airline by financing them with your substandard wages but you are using your onboard service as an excuse as well.

And you say that of course because Jetblue came out with industry leading wages when they first started right? You sir are a joke, please do not interrupt the adults again when we are talking.

 

[clickclickboom]

Yes and I am at the front in support of JB pilots getting a CBA.. if we go down in flames then so be it..

Keep in mind that JB has not blown through half a billion dollars playing the game called airline..

 

[LoveGun]

UALDriver

Your airline lives in defiance of many of the laws of capitalism.

1) Your customers hate your product
2) The pilots receive wages and benefits greater than many pilots are willing to work for (not a happy fact, but true). There is an army of qualified regional pilots that would do your job for 1/3 to 1/2 less pay. That sucks, but is there anything you can do about it?
3) The service UAL provides costs more to produce than your customers are willing to pay
4) In your primary hub, ORD, United and American basically form a duopoly because the two airlines control 90% of the gates. If suddenly 50 gates became available at ORD both UAL and AA would be crushed. Refer back to point #1

UAL is like a diseased old whale. It's problems are complex and nearly impossible to solve. Why don't you look for somewhere else to work? VA should be hiring again this fall. It's a lot of fun working for the insurgent force, and it's great to hear passengers say, "That was the best flight I've ever been on. You guys really need to start flying to XXX city."

 

[startingover]

Ual driver

When the mighty RJ came along you were approached by the ACA mec with a flowthrough....No thanks..135/hr to fly the rj or nothing...

Fast forward..........

Your precious UAL goes bankrupt..

So begins the multi million dollar race to the bottom

Did your ALPA MEC come in and stop the whipsaw.

No

You screwed your ALPA brothers out of jobs in a regional race to the bottom

YOU STARTED THE RACE FOR THE BOTTOM FROM THE GROUND UP

UAL and your ALPA brothers are directly responcible for the low regional wages that
have created the unsafe work environment you see now it has created the flow into low
paying startup jobs


You should be ashamed of yourself.......

I cheer for VA and hope that they kick your A@*