Violation Notice!

[lymanm]

Hello all, just got one of those letters you never want to get. I'm seeking feedback regarding the next course of action. By being upfront I'm making myself vulnerable to arm chair quarterbacking, but please note that I know I've made a mistake and now I'm looking to minimize its impact.

I'm a college student that instructs during the summer off from school. This past summer, I accidentally penetrated the TFR during the Democratic Convention near Boston. I was aware of the TFR, and I was being very careful in consulting the chart and used a radial off an nearby VOR to confirm my position, believing I was beyond the 30nm veil from BOS. Upon landing at my home airport, I was told to contact Boston App who radar pegged me as being 28nm from the VORTAC. Shoot. I filed a NASA form the next day, & wrote the FAA officer who I was in touch with explaining my version of the events. Note in this letter I did not violate myself.

Today I've finally been sent a letter by the FAA, stating they propose to suspend my ticket for 30 days. I've been given 5 options:

1) Accept the suspension, physically give up the license at the Boston FSDO.

2) Appeal to the NTSB. It appears the NTSB will judge the case based on evidence, and the FAA with radar data trumps my dead reckoning/crappy Nav radio radial case.

3) I can write a letter denying the violation occured and/or that the propsed action in unwarranted towards said violation.

4) I can arrange a phone or in person informal conference regarding these actions with an FAA lawyer.

5) Submit evidence that I filed a NASA form in a timely manner, though the letter states that there is no guarantee it will strike the violation or the suspension: "Your claim to a waiver of penalty under this option constitutes your agreement that an order of suspension may be issued without further informal proceedings before the FAA".

Since the incident, I finished the summer instructing (about a month after the incident) then returned to school. I don't fly here at all, and ineed have only flown .3 since September. Furthermore, I don't plan on flying again until school is out. So, the suspension doesn't bother me - I won't be flying anyway. My goal is to avoid any record of violation possible.

With that in mind, obviously #1 is my least favourite. #2 is not on my side because I don't have sufficient evidence to win against radar data. #3 could work, because in school since Sep., I've flown but once, so in essence I've already served a suspension, and therefore violation/suspension is unecessary. I would have to write a letter convincing them of this. #4 I would try the same story, but I can't afford a lawyer and would have no idea how "informal" these proceedings are. I doubt my ability to convince a lawyer in person that a violation/suspension is unecessary. #5 would be the easiest, but it would only waive the suspension (even that is not 100%), but still end up with a violation on file.

So there you have it! I'm in flying for a career, so I'm also concerned with what kind of long last effects this may have. I would appreciate any constructive insight, or anyone with experience in this situation. Yeah, and open season in ripping me a new one, too. There are a ton of things I should have done, I know. I'm such a tool, I freakin's posted the TFR awareness charts all over our flight school!

Thanks for reading. PMs work too.

 

[FN FAL]

Good luck with your case dude...lousy democrats.

 

[jetdriven]

I've been there. Take my advice, I have got three of these notices. Get yourself a GOOD AVIATION LAWYER, not a lawyer with a private pilot ticket, and not an ALPA or AOPA lawyer, either. Not in the phone book. PM me if you cant find one.

Second, have your lawyer maintain ALL correspondence with the FAA. Do not ever engage with those guys on the phone, in person, or by mail. No matter what.

Third, have your lawyer request ALL of the records on file in the violation matter. Get everything.

Arrange an IN PERSON informal conference, preferably at a FSDO other than the one near where it occured. Think Wichita KS or Albuquerque. the further the better. the other FSDO has no personal interest in the matter.

An informal conference consists of you and your counsel sitting across a boardroom table from an FAA FSDO inspector and two of their attorneys in 700 dollar suits.

Beg, borrow, steal, sell something, or use a credit card to pay for an attorney. If you cant afford one then take the mindset that you cant afford to breathe either. this is important and might make a difference in earning potential over your lifetime of several hundred thousand dollars. Without one you might as well mail in your certificates with a note asking them to return them someday.

An ASRS reciept will get you out of the 30 day suspension but not the violation.

you have more options than that. Your lawyer can reduce it to a letter of warning or a letter of correction (both disappear after two years), or a civil penalty in lieu of a violation or suspension.

And to answer youre next question I dont have any violations.

 

[TrafficInSight]

I'm not sure what you should do other than if you are an AOPA member give legal services a call (you get an hour with them with your basic membership). I really don't think you'll be able to convince them that a 30 day suspension is unwarranted since you haven't flown in over 30 days... it's apples and oranges. #4 sounds attractive, if you can convince the guy/gal that you were taking precautions to stay out of the TFR but screwed it up and learned your lesson etc. etc. I definitely wouldn't go the ASRS form route for a 30 day suspension.


That really sucks, seems like such a BS violation

good luck.

 

[Publishers]

appeal it #3 or 5

 

[Flywrite]

I've been there. Take my advice, I have got three of these notices. Get yourself a GOOD AVIATION LAWYER, not a lawyer with a private pilot ticket, and not an ALPA or AOPA lawyer, either. Not in the phone book. PM me if you cant find one.

Good grief, how did you manage to get three in 5000 hours?

 

[Cutlass1287]

but I can't afford a lawyer

Then maybe you can't afford to be a professional pilot. The people you are dealing with do this for a living, and will tear you down in any sort of argument. You need to get a lawyer.

 

[Metro752]

Write a letter to George Bush telling him that the losers TFR is giving you a hassle. Stupid DHS laws. Even if you had a nuke onboard, and toasted Kerry, no one would care cuz he's a liar and he wouldn't have won anyways..............

........................................Good Luck!

 

[Gulfstream 200]

cant afford a lawyer?

ask yourself this...

can you afford to be a CFI the rest of your career?

.

 

[Flywrite]

cant afford a lawyer?

ask yourself this...

can you afford to be a CFI the rest of your career?

.

Obviously the above advice to get a good lawyer is the ideal course of action. But what if when the guy says he "cant afford a lawyer" he really means it. Going to school and insructing in the summer isnt going to bring in a lot of cash. Maybe his folks arent too well off and he sold everything and maxed out the cards to get the CFI. We dont know his circumstances, perhaps he really cant afford such a lawyer, what then?

Maybe the $39 to join AOPA and get some advice from their legal department might be a start. They at least are lawyers, which is something most of us are not.

Biggest thing I would say though is NEVER again write to the feds before they write to you. Perhaps this would have gone no further than an a$$ chewing from Center if it werent for that letter...

I may very well be wrong, but the fact that the TSA are not involved makes me wonder if it wasnt that big of a deal at first.

 

[jetbluedog]

sucks to be you

Man, sucks to be you.

You can kiss your flying 'career' goodbye. Any regional airline or corporate outfit will look down upon this. You royally screwed your career chances. There are so many pilots in this pool of employment, when it comes time to pick between you or 100 other applicants, the one with the "violation-free" history gets picked 1st.

Sorry to break the news.

JB FO

 

[Gulfstream 200]

No big deal?

ANY kind of TFR violation is a HUGE deal right now....2 miles inside a 30 mile range? I say "whatever..." but the feds are not right now. Anyone who has had thier head out of thier a$$ for the last few years knows how serious TFRs are/were. ZERO excuse to be 3 feet inside on, nevermind 2 miles. Its a mistake....yes, now fix it and move on.

Use all the excuses you want, he messed up, and having to say YES to the violation question on every application and interview (even corporate) will limit you enough that I say you might as well hang up flying while you are young and go another route.

A decent lawyer may be able to get this settled for a grand or two. Whats your average decent pilot job pay over 30 yrs? 6 million? more?

the choice is his.

whatever...

 

[Vavso]

Hey JB Dog

you are a real classy guy. thanks for totally rocking this guys world . Everyone is a trip on the sidewalk away from getting violated or worse . EX: Tenerife, Ual getting lost in fog and taxiing onto an active runway.etc etc etc. Give the guy a break ! Vavso

 

[jetdriven]

Two were related to a student pilot not under my control anymore, but I was his last CFI.(NOTE: if you leave a CFI job find every student and VOID out his solo signoff on his medical) and once involving a taxi incident under a marshaller's direction.

Good grief, how did you manage to get three in 5000 hours?

 

[dispatchguy]

GET AN AVIATION ATTORNEY

I had to do an ASRS form from an operational incident I had this past summer. I recall from reading on some aviation attorney's website, that your FAA record will show a violation, but, you will not be subjected to the sanctions of that violation due to your ASRS report as long as you can prove timely filing (unless they consider your actions criminal - then all bets are off - but if they were doing that, my guess is that the order would've been an emergency order of suspension or revocation.

DO NOT TALK TO THE FSDO YOURSELF - I DONT CARE IF YOUR DAD IS THE FSDO MANAGER - DO NOT TALK TO THE FSDO YOURSELF - NO WAY NO HOW

I am not making any promotion, as I do not personally know this attorney - but he has some good points to make on his website - http://www.aviationlawcorp.com.

If you cant afford your own attorney - at least, at a minimum, and if you are a member, talk with an AOPA attorney.

As for future career prospects; yeah, if the order of suspension is finalized, even if you dont suffer the effects of the sanction, you'd have to explain yourself at every interview why you checked that box on your application; if you got that far...

What was the number of that truck driving school............?

 

[jetdriven]

Sir, I wish you would look down from yur lofty Airbus FO perch and look at me flip you off.

You are the biggest azzhole I have even seen post on here.

Man, sucks to be you.

You can kiss your flying 'career' goodbye. Any regional airline or corporate outfit will look down upon this. You royally screwed your career chances. There are so many pilots in this pool of employment, when it comes time to pick between you or 100 other applicants, the one with the "violation-free" history gets picked 1st.

Sorry to break the news.

JB FO

 

[legaleagle]

For the love of God guys. He is not done in the industry. You guys blow my mind.

Anyway, to help out, as a former FAA legal clerk for two years in law school, and now aviation attorney, with a commercial/instrument/multi license, I offer the following assessment:

THIS IS NOT LEGAL ADVICE AND YOU SHOULD NOT RELY ON IT. GO SEE YOUR ATTORNEY. IT IS JUST AN OBSERVATION OF THE SITUATION AND POSSIBLE REMEDIES. I AM NOT LICENSED IN MASSACHUSETTS.

1. You filed a NASA form. If it is your first, it will not erase the violation, but it will prevent any suspension of your license for fine. Two, any decent AOPA attorney should be able to have this mitigated. I assume, if you were on a radial that just barely shaved off a TFR, and you were only two miles off, the radar track will show that you were following a radial, and that you were not just flying straight ahead into airspace. It was inadvertent. (In fact, I forget my little memory items, but isn't two dots off course on the VOR, two miles at 60 miles from the station?) Just as they can suspend your license for a going over the hold short line, it can be mitigated, and resolved, if it was for example, a parking brake that slipped (just had one of these on a Lear due to air in the brake line), and not due to pilot error.

2. Never surrender your license. You don't have to surrender your license, until all appeals are exhausted. This could take months or years, and you have no duty to do so, until the action takes it's complete course, as long as you are appealing.

3. Do not write anything until you see an attorney, but have your attorney write them a letter saying that you are represented by counsel. All issues after that will be directed to him, they cannot contact you personally once you are represented by counsel.

As to the allegation that TFR's are hot issues, they WERE hot issues over a year ago. The mandatory 180 day suspension was dropped internally, and violations were lowered to 30-60 days. The TFR thing may be made a hot topic by the news, but it is only warm in aviation law or at the FAA.

You should be able to mitigated this down to recurrent training and/or a warning for a first time violation, due to the slight nature of the violation.

But, don't answer any questions, and hire an AOPA attorney if you have the legal plan. If you don't, pay an enforcement attorney say up to $1000 depending on where you are. This is a pretty basic case. Not that nasty.

Can't help you much further than that...And, unfortunately, although I will begin doing this soon for you guys, I won't answer any questions on PM or email. Sorry. I do not want to violate Bar rules of states that I am not licensed in. But, I am researching this, and will have it solved in a couple of weeks.

Good luck man, you are not in that much trouble. And, frankly I would think the higher time pilots might be a little more helpful and encouraging when issues like this arise.

LE

CB

 

[JB Bus Drvr]

As a former FED, LegalEagle has the best advice. This TFR BS has messed up a lot of folks. Usually I would say to try to work with the FSDO but this is one of the rare cases you really should get some representation. As mandated by Homeland Security, the FAA has to go after everybody who busts TFRs. If GW would bust one, they would do the same to him as to you. Until AOPA can get enough of the elected officals to get their heads out of the up and locked position, we're going to have to tolerate this nonsense. As to my "so called brother in blue" comments, sounds like he's an idiot not really in tune to our values. Disregard anything he has to say. My apologies from the rest of us. As to your future flying opportunities, there are lots of folks out there with marks on their records who are very sucessful as pro pilots. The thing is that don't repeat the same mistake. The big difference between you and most of us is, you got caught. Shake it off and continue to do well in aviation. Ten years from now when you're in a 'bus or 7-7something, you'll be giving the same advice to some other aspiring pilot.

Good Luck!

 

[Gulfstream 200]

I dont think people were syaing he is done in the industry what-so-ever.

I think most were saying that WITH A VIOLATION on his record you can say he is done. Impossible to get a good job w/a violation? nope, Im sure there are exceptions...but why continue when he is so young...

All people are saying is get it fixed - the right way. Yes, you will forget about it in a few years when you move on, but you have potential to end your career here, take care of it.

Shut your freakin' trap with the FAA until you get counsel.

 

[Peanut gallery]

I can help, or at least shed some light on your options

I have sent you a PM with my phone number feel free to call anytime during the hours of 6:30am to 9:00 pm eastern.

 

[Mr. Irrelevant]

lymanm,

First, I hope everything works out for you. Second, as these guys have told you, don't talk to the FAA again. In regards to your NASA filing, DON'T TELL THEM ABOUT IT until/if a judgement has been rendered. If you tell them about it now, they will go find the filing and use it against you if they can. Good luck with your battle.

Now, I'm curious. What airport were you flying out of??? I must have filed 10+ DVFR flight plans over the convention. I have sympathy for your situation but as Gulfstream said, as a CFI you should have known not to go even close to that TFR in the first place.

I don't think your career is over. A lot easier to explain away something you've done at 21 as a mistake and a learning experience than it is when you're at 10000 hours and 40+ years old.

Mr. I.

 

[probablecause]

My father unknowingly clipped a Presidential TFR late 2003 and promptly filled out a NASA form the next day. The feds just suspended his certificate a few weeks ago for 30 days. Basically they told him flat out that the NASA form wouldn’t save you from a Presidential TFR bust. He did not seek out any legal advice just took the suspension and went on.

PC

 

[Wankel7]

It is too late for the AOPA legal service plan. They won't cover what happened before you instated your coverage.

Good luck with it man.

Keep us posted!

Wankel

 

[apcooper]

lymanm,


Have the informal conference in a conservative state like TX!! If somehow you can find a republican Kerry hating FAA inspector to take your case this will be invaluable!!! He'll probably be more than sympathetic towards you and might just give you a warning or something.

I'm so glad that deuchbag didn't win the election. Unfortunatly if the CBS memogate hadn't been uncovered that might have happened!!!

Please don't go anywhere near TFR's! Avoid them as you would a thunderstorm!! I'm sure this will not make a big dent in your future career. In the interview just be upfront and honest about it.

 

[LAXSaabdude]

Good luck with your case dude...lousy democrats.

Riiiight, cause if he had done the same thing at the RNC they would have just blown it off....

LAXSaabdude

 

[A Squared]

Tenerife, Ual getting lost in fog and taxiing onto an active runway.etc etc etc.

Just a minor point, the Pan Am 747 was supposed to be on the runway, it had been cleared to backtaxi on the runway as most of the taxiways were blocked with parked planes. They had some problems finding the way off in the fog, but they knew they were on the runway, They had not called clear of the runway. The Tower knew that they were on the runway. Even the KLM 747's flight engineer knew they were on the runway, or at least suspected it ... he died trying to convince the KLM captain of that. The only one involved who didn't grasp that the Pan Am 747 was still on the runway was the KLM captain.

 

[BD King]

Hate to mention this. Remember Bob Hoover.

 

[fastandlow]

First, I'm not a lawyer nor do I play one on TV - only on the internet!

Not sure where you are in the process, but based upon my own experiences, don't tell them anything. Get a lawyer. Correspond only by certified mail. You or your lawyer should *load them up* with legitimate requests supporting their position against you. You can use the freedom of information act for this, but there are procedures for invoking it (you must know exactly what you need).

Feel them out at first. Don't blast them right away. Load them up progressively if you can. There are some good stories of pilots fighting the faa on the web. Search and learn.

And be very, very cordial with all your correspondence - anything less can be used against you - really. If it goes to a hearing, you may even be able to subponea witnesses. The object is to make it a very expensive hassle to come after you.

good luck.

 

[Hobbs]

Violation

Please do not listen to those who tell you you are history. Do your best to fight it. If you are stuck with it on your record, learn a lesson and move on. There are more people than you know with a less than perfect record. (nobody wants to advertise) The key is be honest, accept responsibility and show you've learned something.

I do believe that he who has the lawyer, gets the better deal. If you can get help, it is worth the try.

 

[JediNein]

First, yer not history. I know full time instructors and corporate pilots with violations and their-fault airplane accidents on their records. They overcame the obstacle.

Talk with the lawyers, sure....but...

Try the informal conference option, a combination of 3, 4, and 5. You've already incriminated yourself with the first letter. Use the conference to ask the FAA inspector if you can have Remedial Training. (Amazingly, FAA Inspectors don't always give all of the options in their letters, especially the Remedial Training. However, there is some discussion about Remedial Training as unavailable to instructor, yet I know of cases where instructors have had it even after an accident.)
In your favor for the conversation:
1. You filed a NASA report.
2. You are or will be an aviation safety counselor (I hope).
3. You were posting safety posters about the TFRs around your school.
4. You were actively instructing your students to avoid the TFR.
5. This was inadvertent.
6. You have been open and honest (if so, you did hang yourself) from calling up ATC in the beginning to talking to the ASI now.

Sure Remedial Training is expensive (CFI rate * 2-5 hours), but it doesn't carry the stigma of a violation and is far cheaper than fighting the case.

Not in your favor, and think about how you're going to answer the following:
1. You are a CFI, you are supposed to not make this mistake. (Yer human! But Remedial Training on CRM ~you vs. student would help or Navigation)
2. You violated a TFR (ATC RADAR trumps all and they have your letter ).
3. A 30 day suspension is a standard sanction.
4. The LOI & proposed violation letters have already been issued.
5. Why were you cutting it so close that you were 2 miles inside of the TFR? What were you trying to fly? What hazardous attitude did you sucumb to?

Good luck!
Jedi Nein