Victor airways ......?

[b82rez]

This is another topic like :
- Do you log PIC if you are working on your instrument rating when you are a private pilot?
- Does your CFI qualify as a BFR?
- Do I log X-C time if I am flying from and to an airport that is less than <50 miles?

yes
yes
no

Fun stuff

 

[MauleSkinner]

ASquared, or anybody else that might be familiar with higher latitudes, when the airways go to "true" courses way up north, are they still victor airways, or do they call 'em something else? Or are they all NDB airways?

I don't have a chart handy, and I can't find anything other than where it says "other than Alaska" in the AIM.

Thanks

David

 

[DC8 Flyer]

ASquared, or anybody else that might be familiar with higher latitudes, when the airways go to "true" courses way up north, are they still victor airways, or do they call 'em something else? Or are they all NDB airways?

I don't have a chart handy, and I can't find anything other than where it says "other than Alaska" in the AIM.

Thanks

David

Victor airways, jet airways are US names for routes. Up north when they become true or even grid airways they have names like AR5 instead of J15 or V23. Europe use UL34 (upper level) etc.

 

[minitour]

This is another topic like :
- Do you log PIC if you are working on your instrument rating when you are a private pilot?
- Does your CFI qualify as a BFR?
- Do I log X-C time if I am flying from and to an airport that is less than <50 miles?

Yes
It can
Yes

-mini

 

[A Squared]

ASquared, or anybody else that might be familiar with higher latitudes, when the airways go to "true" courses way up north, are they still victor airways, or do they call 'em something else? Or are they all NDB airways?

I don't have a chart handy, and I can't find anything other than where it says "other than Alaska" in the AIM.

Thanks

David

I don't know that any low altitude airways go to true course. I've flown in and out of Barrow, and the airways are magnetic there. It doesn't get any further North in the US that that. The high altitude polar routes go to True courses, but those aren't Victor Airways.

 

[MauleSkinner]

Thanks A Squared and DC8!

David

 

[FlyingToIST]

ASquared, or anybody else that might be familiar with higher latitudes, when the airways go to "true" courses way up north, are they still victor airways, or do they call 'em something else? Or are they all NDB airways?

I don't have a chart handy, and I can't find anything other than where it says "other than Alaska" in the AIM.

Thanks

David

David,
AIM also states some airways in North Carolina. I am guessing those are the ones that go off shore between Florida and norhteast. (Not having the chart in my hand)..

 

[midlifeflyer]

ASquared,
I am not goint to get into a pissing match with you but you are not getting my point..

This is another topic like :
- Do you log PIC if you are working on your instrument rating when you are a private pilot?
- Does your CFI qualify as a BFR?
- Do I log X-C time if I am flying from and to an airport that is less than <50 miles?

Well, it's a =little= different. Those last three questions might have correct answers, but the correct answers were the result of a substantial amount of brainwork interpreting a series of formalistic regulations - the correct answer comes down to which opinion ultimately won.

The question of whether a victor airway is true or magnetic was settled, not by a battle of opinions, but by the way the system was designed.

I really have to agree with A Squared on this. It may depend a little on what part of the country you are in (no, this is not a "redneck" joke) but the idea of, for example, a bunch of CFIs in California thinking that once you've intercepted the 180 radial you turn to 014 to track it inbound =is= a little bit scary.

 

[FlyingToIST]

Well, it's a =little= different. Those last three questions might have correct answers, but the correct answers were the result of a substantial amount of brainwork interpreting a series of formalistic regulations - the correct answer comes down to which opinion ultimately won.

The question of whether a victor airway is true or magnetic was settled, not by a battle of opinions, but by the way the system was designed.

I really have to agree with A Squared on this. It may depend a little on what part of the country you are in (no, this is not a "redneck" joke) but the idea of, for example, a bunch of CFIs in California thinking that once you've intercepted the 180 radial you turn to 014 to track it inbound =is= a little bit scary.

Mark,
not really.. I buy your argument for the second question, but the answers for 1 and 3 are crystal clear.

For instance , FARs have the definition of a cross country flight. Wrong impression is the fault of the pilots, not the misinterpretation of the CFIs or their students.

But that doesn't mean that these subjects are the usual suspects when there is a discussion about it..

 

[Jim Dandy]

They are magnetic. It is sad to see that the requirements to become a professional pilot have gotten so weak that these types of questions even need to be asked. Have you ever read the AIM or the FARs or looked at an IFR chart of any kind?

It very sad when you say there are many of you at this "flight school" who don't know the answer. Please tell me you're not a CFI or CFII, please tell me you only have your private.

You talk about starting a discussion on the topic, maybe while we're at it we can start discussing if the earth is round or flat, or if rock is heavier then air, those are some topics open for debate.

 

[FlyingToIST]

Jim,
I am a CFI, II, MEI thank you very much.. Are you telling me that these subjects are forbidden from a discussion? Are we not supposed to have two different opionions, two parties defending their own versions, but having a single true one?

A flight school will have these discussions.. and CFIs will lead the students to the right answers..

The whole purpose of the OP was to see what will be the take of some other people in here.. I 'd rather teach through discusssion, that leads to looking things up and then finding the truth..

I see a lot of rote learning in this business. Especially among the people who are just doing the instruction thing as a steping stone, not giving it what it's worth..

Cheers and happy flying to you too..

 

[Jim Dandy]

Discussion and debate are good. But some topics are not debatable. Many many years ago most people thought the earth was flat, a debate was started by a few people who disagreed. That was a good debate. However these days that debate wouldn't go far, it is agreed the earth is round, no if ands or buts, no debate.

It's like me wanting to debate if I can log SIC multi time in a 172.

 

[midlifeflyer]

Are we not supposed to have two different opinions, two parties defending their own versions, but having a single true one?

No.

There is way too much emphasis on "opinion" over fact. That's politically correct nonsense. Yes, there is sometimes a fuzzy line between the two, usually in the area of what a fact means or what facts people decide to use to support their viewpoints. But there are things that are a matter of opinion; there are things that clearly on the matter of fact side of the line. Discussing whether Joe's red shirt is ugly is a matter of opinion; discussing whether Joe's shirt is red or blue is idiotic.

Whether a VOR airway is designed to use magnetic courses or true courses is not a matter of opinion. It's a matter of knowledge. Those who say magnetic have knowledge; those who say true have ignorance.

Of course, "Are Victor airways true or magnetic?" is a legitimate question asked by someone who is looking for information. And differing answers are indeed valuable, especially when they end up as a discussion - they let the listener know who to go to with the next question and who to stay far away from.

BTW, I think too many answers assume that you were the one "arguing" that the answer is "true." I assume nothing of the sort.

 

[nosehair]

we can start discussing if the earth is round or flat, or if rock is heavier then air, those are some topics open for debate.

Now this is a discussion I can jump in on.
...actually, the earth is neither round nor flat....
....depends on the kind of air and the kind of rock you're taling about. I need more data...

FWIW, ToIST, I agree with your technique of initiating discussion. Some folks have forgotten what it's like being a student. These "facts", (as they certainly are) are still misunderstood and mis-interpreted by students-who-become-instructors.

There is no question too silly or stupid to be asked here.

A good pilot is always training. An Learning.

Me Too.

 

[FlyingToIST]

No.

There is way too much emphasis on "opinion" over fact. That's politically correct nonsense. Yes, there is sometimes a fuzzy line between the two, usually in the area of what a fact means or what facts people decide to use to support their viewpoints. But there are things that are a matter of opinion; there are things that clearly on the matter of fact side of the line. Discussing whether Joe's red shirt is ugly is a matter of opinion; discussing whether Joe's shirt is red or blue is idiotic.

Whether a VOR airway is designed to use magnetic courses or true courses is not a matter of opinion. It's a matter of knowledge. Those who say magnetic have knowledge; those who say true have ignorance.

Of course, "Are Victor airways true or magnetic?" is a legitimate question asked by someone who is looking for information. And differing answers are indeed valuable, especially when they end up as a discussion - they let the listener know who to go to with the next question and who to stay far away from.

BTW, I think too many answers assume that you were the one "arguing" that the answer is "true." I assume nothing of the sort.

Mark,
your teaching method is different than mine.. To each their own..

When I teach I'd like to encourage students to use their head, instead of repeating back to me an answer that I give them.

Once again, there are things that are better learned with discussion..

We are not discussing something like "How many hp is the engine on the Tomahawk?".. That's not open for debate.

There are, on the other hand, some other areas where people don't have the right answer, right away.. Victor airways was such a subject. The other 3 are the same.. There are a lot of wrong information people carry over in this business because they were taught wrong from their CFIs.

When someone in the ground school says they are magnetic and someone else says "true" I just don't give them the answer.. I make them think about it.. (In this case my reply was "When you have no winds , you are on the airway, does the heading indicator match with the OBS indicator if you are on 090 radial flying east bound?" )

I could have said "magnetic".....

Which of these methods will teach to student better? Through which of these methods student will have the incentive to look the answer up and think about it ?

My experience is , a lot of people learn the things by heart and repeat back the answer without thinking about it! A parrot can do that..

I wanted to start a similar discussion here in the sprit of this website. Morons called me names, etc. for it.. It is amazing how easy it is to call me names hiding behind a screen name..

---------------------------------------------------------------------

Added the Chinese proverb:

... I hear and I forget. I see and I remember. I do and I understand.

 

[midlifeflyer]

Mark,
your teaching method is different than mine.. To each their own..

When I teach I'd like to encourage students to use their head, instead of repeating back to me an answer that I give them.

If you look at my original answer to your question, you will see that our =teaching= techniques are not dissimilar.

But I was getting the impression from the latter part of the thread that this was not a teaching situation where students are asking a question, but a "discussion" with varying worthless opinions among folks who should know the answer.

We are not discussing something like "How many hp is the engine on the Tomahawk?".. That's not open for debate.

Why not? How is it different (unless you are indeed trying to defend someone's ignorance)? Aren't I entitled to my "opinion" that a Tomahawk is a high preformance multi-engine retract? Why not have a discussion of varying opinions of how much HP a Tomahawk has? or what the speed limit in Class D is? or whether a victor airway is magnetic or true? or any of the other 1001 things in aviation that are simply rote learning? You don't want your students just spit some answer out of a book, do you?

 

[EMB170Pilot]

Discussion and debate are good. But some topics are not debatable. Many many years ago most people thought the earth was flat, a debate was started by a few people who disagreed. That was a good debate. However these days that debate wouldn't go far, it is agreed the earth is round, no if ands or buts, no debate.

It's like me wanting to debate if I can log SIC multi time in a 172.

If the engine fails..can u log time as a glider???

what if your flying on Delta and sitting in seat 1A...can you log turbine time??

Discuss.....

 

[FlyinTim]

I am taking A Squared's approach to this....

DON'T ASK STUPID QUESTIONS..


your a CFII...look in the aim...how the heck did you get your ticket?

Moderator reviewed.

 

[satpak77]

are they true or magnetic course? ... Discuss..

what do you mean "discuss" CFI boy? look it up for christs sake

by the way, who cares, you use VOR radials to define them or pull them up in the FMS. No VOR ? No airway to define. Unless you want ATC to vector you to keep you in the airway....good luck with that one

is Interstate 35 North based on true north or magnetic north? how about just get on it and drive northbound

 

[FlyingToIST]

what do you mean "discuss" CFI boy? look it up for christs sake

by the way, who cares, you use VOR radials to define them or pull them up in the FMS. No VOR ? No airway to define. Unless you want ATC to vector you to keep you in the airway....good luck with that one

is Interstate 35 North based on true north or magnetic north? how about just get on it and drive northbound

Satpak,
did you read the entire thread?