"VFR on top" clearance. . .

[A Squared]

You stay on an IFR flight plan and make your own straight line point. If you have an IFR rated GPS then i would just file direct.

As someone else has already pointed out, you may not do this outside of radar coverage, unless you are cleared VFR on TOP.

VFR on top makes no sense to me.

You've been given at least 4 different scenarios in which there is an operational advantage. I would have to ask, what does "make sense" mean to you?

You don't have another set of eyes helping you clear.

Uhhh, sure you do. You're still in radio contact with ATC, they are still giving you traffic advisories. If you're in Visual Conditions, you should be exercising see and avoid anyway, regardless of whether "VFR on Top" or on a "hard" altitude. The *only* difference is that ATC is not actively seperating you from other IFR traffic. Your seperation from VFR traffic is *exactly* the same; ATC advisories supplementing see and aviod.

and isn't VFR flying using pilotage and dead reckoning??? Kind of hard to do when you can't see the ground.

1) VFR flying is not exclusively Pilotage and Dead Reconing.

2) Dead Reckoning does not depend on seeing the ground

3) What makes you think you can't see the ground? "VFR on TOP" is just a phrase, often you are not "on top" but are actually in conditions which are VMC all the way to the ground.

 

[Hold West]

WHY DON"T YOU JUST FILE A RADIAL DME OF A VORTAC?? You stay on an IFR flight plan and make your own straight line point. If you have an IFR rated GPS then i would just file direct.

VFR on top makes no sense to me. You don't have another set of eyes helping you clear and isn't VFR flying using pilotage and dead reckoning??? Kind of hard to do when you can't see the ground.

Because in high/mountainous terrain the airway MEAs may be 5, 6, or 7 thousand while the minimum IFR altitude on a direct route may be 12, 14 or 16,000 feet. In order to go more direct on a nice, clear day without having to climb way higher than you want to go (or can go) in a light single.

Don't get hung up on the "on top" part of the clearance - you don't have to be on top of anything, just operating in VMC.

The advantage is you still get all the services an IFR flight does in terms of traffic advisories, weather information and SAR services.

VFR-on-top is highly underutilized if you ask me, probably because it's misunderstood by pilots and controllers both.

 

[C-141/C-5]

7-3-1. VFR-ON-TOP
a. You may clear an aircraft to maintain "VFR-on-top" if the pilot of an aircraft on an IFR flight plan requests the clearance.
PHRASEOLOGY-
MAINTAIN VFR-ON-TOP.
NOTE-
1. When an aircraft has been cleared to maintain "VFR-on-top," the pilot is responsible to fly at an appropriate VFR altitude, comply with VFR visibility and distance from cloud criteria, and to be vigilant so as to see and avoid other aircraft. The pilot is also responsible to comply with instrument flight rules applicable to the flight (e.g., adherence to ATC clearances).

2. Although standard IFR separation is not applied, controllers shall continue to provide traffic advisories and safety alerts, and apply merging target procedures to aircraft operating VFR-on-top.
b. You may clear an aircraft to climb through clouds, smoke, haze, or other meteorological formations and then to maintain "VFR-on-top" if the following conditions are met:
1. The pilot requests the clearance.
2. You inform the pilot of the reported height of the tops of the meteorological formation, or
3. You inform the pilot that no top report is available.
4. When necessary, you ensure separation from all other traffic for which you have separation responsibility by issuing an alternative clearance.
5. When an aircraft is climbing to and reports reaching "VFR-on-top," reclear the aircraft to maintain "VFR-on-top."​

MY 2 CENTS:
1. Personally, I'd rather ATC give me proper IFR seperation with me ultimately agreeing with it.
2. I interpret this reg as there is some sort of meterogical condition that you are climbing through to get on top of.
3. I must of been a BAD flight instructor back in the day because I taught pilotage and dead reckoning as VFR navigation with Navaids as a backup Situational Awareness tool.
4. So, what it boils down to is little bug smashers getting impatient getting the VFR on top and screwing up the airspace up more for the bigger jets. Reminds me of the idiots on the road in the left lane and going 5mph below the speed limit and you can't get by.

SERIOUSLY CORRECT ME IF I"M WRONG BUT THIS IS HOW I INTERPRET THIS REG. I'VE NEVER REQUESTED IT OR EVEN THOUGHT ABOUT IT.

 

[81Horse]

You're confusing two different situations, as referenced.

A pilot on an IFR flight plan may request VFR-on-top in lieu of a hard altitude, if operating in VMC. Pilots may opt to do this for a variety of reasons (and, as Hold West said, it's an underutilized option). The pilot's responsibility to see and avoid while in VMC remains exactly the same as if he were at a hard altitude -- and he continues to receive ATC services, and can revert to a hard altitude at his request.

For IFR departures -- at pilot request -- a controller may issue a clearance to climb to VFR conditions on top (handy for climbing through coastal stratus, for instance); in this case, the controller issues a clearance limit and alternate instructions (and the reported tops) -- the expectation being the pilot will cancel when reaching "on top," and will proceed under VFR.

VFR-on-top operations pose no impediment to other traffic -- quite the reverse: requesting VFR-on-top can expedite your own flight, and others.

<edit to add my personal favorite use of VFR-on-top: departing IFR from an airport below the radar environment. You taxi out for takeoff, and tell ATC "requesting VFR-on-top; we're on top now." And, wah-lah! "Maintain VFR-conditions-on-top, cleared for takeoff." Traffic is issued as appropriate, everybody gets to keep moving, and you can shortcut an onerous departure procedure. It's a beautiful thing.>

 

[C-141/C-5]

I understand what your saying, but I think it's really not worth the trouble. Besides departure procedures are terped so you know you have ground clearance and you know the climb gradient required if you lose an engine. If you do your own thing you have to do more ground planning to make sure you meet requirements. Thanks for the info.

 

[AC560]

Let's say you're in a training situation and you want to do some airwork. The airport is IFR, so you file a flight plan from airport XYZ to ABC VOR, when you contact departure you explain you're in VMC and would like to manuever in a block of airspace and then return for the ILS at airport XYZ.

This is the part where I really am not clear on. Basically you just ring up center and say you want to go back to IFR and you can re-enter IMC conditions?

I can see to some extent what A-Sqaured is saying about the ability to naviagate a block of altitude but just seems to me to be a lot easier to either cancel or just remain on the IFR clearance given the type/size of planes I fly.

In any case this thread has been pretty informative, agree with Hold West about a lot of people (myself included) not really understanding this.

 

[A Squared]

MY 2 CENTS:
1. Personally, I'd rather ATC give me proper IFR seperation with me ultimately agreeing with it.

That's fine, if that's your preference. It is the height of arrogance to claim that others with a much broader level of experience, who do not share your preference are senseless.

2. I interpret this reg as there is some sort of meterogical condition that you are climbing through to get on top of.

THere are several concepts being disussed, it seems that you are a little confused by them. The "VFR-on-Top" I'm talking about is this one, from the pilot controller glossary:

VFR-ON-TOP- ATC authorization for an IFR aircraft to operate in VFR conditions at any appropriate VFR altitude (as specified in 14 CFR and as restricted by ATC). A pilot receiving this authorization must comply with the VFR visibility, distance from cloud criteria, and the minimum IFR altitudes specified in 14 CFR Part 91. The use of this term does not relieve controllers of their responsibility to separate aircraft in Class B and Class C airspace or TRSAs as required by FAAO 7110.65.

3. I must of been a BAD flight instructor back in the day because I taught pilotage and dead reckoning as VFR navigation with Navaids as a backup Situational Awareness tool.

I have no idea whether you were a good or bad flight instructior. My point was that, for what it's worth, Dead Reckoning does not depend on seeing the ground. All you need is a known position, knowledge of your ground speed and ground track and a timer.

4. So, what it boils down to is little bug smashers getting impatient getting the VFR on top and screwing up the airspace up more for the bigger jets. Reminds me of the idiots on the road in the left lane and going 5mph below the speed limit and you can't get by.

Huuuhhh????? Where in the He11 did you pull that out of? You say that you have no experience with VFR on top, and it seems very likely that you really don't grasp the concept, yet you feel justified in making a ridiculous statement like this? Just for the record, the vast majority of my experience with VFR on Top, and likely, most of mar's, took place flying 4 engine transports. The fact that you think this is somehow "screwing up the airspace" shows that you haven't the foggiest idea what you're talking about. In most cases, VFR on top will make things easier for everyone, including the controller and other IFR traffic.

 

[Metro752]

this is very informational

ty guys

 

[Hold West]

MY 2 CENTS:
1. Personally, I'd rather ATC give me proper IFR seperation with me ultimately agreeing with it.
2. I interpret this reg as there is some sort of meterogical condition that you are climbing through to get on top of.
3. I must of been a BAD flight instructor back in the day because I taught pilotage and dead reckoning as VFR navigation with Navaids as a backup Situational Awareness tool.
4. So, what it boils down to is little bug smashers getting impatient getting the VFR on top and screwing up the airspace up more for the bigger jets. Reminds me of the idiots on the road in the left lane and going 5mph below the speed limit and you can't get by.

SERIOUSLY CORRECT ME IF I"M WRONG BUT THIS IS HOW I INTERPRET THIS REG. I'VE NEVER REQUESTED IT OR EVEN THOUGHT ABOUT IT.

Most of your misconceptions have already been addressed, so I won't reiterate what's already been said.

What I find fairly humorous is that your screen name indicates you must be an AF pilot, and (your "little bug smashers" comment notwithstanding) the last OTP clearance I gave was to a KC-135.

We get a lot of military types that come out for a few days, and while they are here, they will take a trip down to one end of the island chain and back up to the other, just to admire our lovely state. This particular 135 came out a couple of weeks ago on a Saturday, doing exactly that, at 5,000 feet. The problem I had was he was headed toward a 12,000 foot MEA in another 50 miles or so. I told him he'd have to climb, and he came back with "Oh, OK, request VFR-on-top, and we are on top at this time". I say, "Roger, maintain VFR conditions on top" and just like that, we're done! Everyone's happy.

It's just on more tool in the box.

 

[Hold West]

For IFR departures -- at pilot request -- a controller may issue a clearance to climb to VFR conditions on top (handy for climbing through coastal stratus, for instance); in this case, the controller issues a clearance limit and alternate instructions (and the reported tops) -- the expectation being the pilot will cancel when reaching "on top," and will proceed under VFR.

I learned this when I was flying off my instrument rating in Wisconsin, way back when. On those overcast MVFR days with a layer at 1000 or so with tops around 3000, we'd go out to train, and call for an "IFR clearance to VFR conditions on top and cancel" We'd get a clearance to the Green Bay VOR via radar vectors, climb to and maintain VFR conditions on top, if not on top by 6000, maintain 6000 and advise. Off we'd go, break out on top, cancel, and go do our hood work, then when we were done, call and get clearance back in for a couple of approaches. Worked great, got to log a little actual each time, and was no extra workload for anyone.