Vfr Mel

[Medicryan]

This is a stupid question and should probably know this, but can anyone provide me the acronym and names of equipment required for VFR flight. I am taking my commercial checkride next week and I can not remember for the life of me.

Thanks,

Ryan

 

[minitour]

Day:
A TOMATO FLAMES (or "TOMATO FLAMES - A?" if you're Canadian)

Night:
FLAPS

 

[av8rbama]

get that yellow (or is the commercial orange?) asa oral exam guide.

 

[drinkduff77]

We used CAAAFFOOTMEGS for day, FLAPS for night

-'duff

ps. I hope if the examiner asks what an MEL is, you don't spout off this list as your thread title implies.

 

[midlifeflyer]

The only thing stupid is the acronym itself. The only thing stupider are DPEs who test the acronym instead of airworthiness.

So, based on the airplane you are taking for the checkride, is it airworthy for VFR flight if the stall warning is inoperative?

(It think this is one of the few boards I never asked my "stupid acronym" survey question in)

 

[RichardRambone]

The only thing stupid is the acronym itself. The only thing stupider are DPEs who test the acronym instead of airworthiness.

So, based on the airplane you are taking for the checkride, is it airworthy for VFR flight if the stall warning is inoperative?

(It think this is one of the few boards I never asked my "stupid acronym" survey question in)

Well, is it?

 

[atldc9]

I am going to open my big mouth and say it depends. On the Cessna 172S, which I get to scare myself in every month or so, the Pneumatic Stall Warning system is listed in the AFM as being Required by cretification. So in the Cessna 172S, you would not be airworthy if it was inop. That may not be the case with other airplane models.

Fire away.

 

[NW_Pilot]

Like the Cargo Net in a 172RG!

 

[RichardRambone]

I am going to open my big mouth and say it depends. On the Cessna 172S, which I get to scare myself in every month or so, the Pneumatic Stall Warning system is listed in the AFM as being Required by cretification. So in the Cessna 172S, you would not be airworthy if it was inop. That may not be the case with other airplane models.

Fire away.

See I asked b/c I am going for a checkride soon and I too looked it up and it is required. The stall warning wasnt working when I did stalls the other day. Its a 172S but the airplane is free so now Im in a pickle b/c it wont get fixed unless its on my dime Im sure. Screw that, Ill say it was working fine the day before.

 

[midlifeflyer]

I am going to open my big mouth and say it depends. On the Cessna 172S, which I get to scare myself in every month or so, the Pneumatic Stall Warning system is listed in the AFM as being Required by cretification. So in the Cessna 172S, you would not be airworthy if it was inop. That may not be the case with other airplane models.

Fire away.

We have a winner.

I never posted the question on this board because I felt that there were more professionally-oriented pilots who understood 91.213 and the analysis that's required to determine whether a particular item is required or not.

More typically, I've gotten a lot of answers like, "it's not part of TOMATO FLAMES" so it's okay. Not the fault of the pilots. I think that the emphasis on memorizing the acronym has a tendency to elevate it's importance to the point that a lot of pilots think that's all there is. In fact, the informal survey result is that a pilot who learned one of the acronyms for 91.205 was more likely to get an airworthiness question wrong than one who never heard of it. (The scary part is the CFIs who've gotten it wrong)

(Short version of long soapbox diatribe)

 

[twighead]

See I asked b/c I am going for a checkride soon and I too looked it up and it is required. The stall warning wasnt working when I did stalls the other day. Its a 172S but the airplane is free so now Im in a pickle b/c it wont get fixed unless its on my dime Im sure. Screw that, Ill say it was working fine the day before.

Everything on the airplane is required to be working. There are just certain things that can be deferred and some that can't. Eveything on the ATOMATOFLAMES is required equipment that cannot be deferred.

However, this has nothing to do with an MEL (original poster referred to it as an MEL) and I wouldn't refer to it as such on your checkide unless you want a pink slip.

 

[drinkduff77]

Everything on the airplane is required to be working. There are just certain things that can be deferred and some that can't. Eveything on the ATOMATOFLAMES is required equipment that cannot be deferred.

However, this has nothing to do with an MEL (original poster referred to it as an MEL) and I wouldn't refer to it as such on your checkide unless you want a pink slip.

Not true for part 91 piston powered airplanes:

Sec. 91.213

Inoperative instruments and equipment.


(a) Except as provided in paragraph (d) of this section, no person may take off an aircraft with inoperative instruments or equipment installed unless the following conditions are met:
(1) An approved Minimum Equipment List exists for that aircraft.
(2) The aircraft has within it a letter of authorization, issued by the FAA Flight Standards district office having jurisdiction over the area in which the operator is located, authorizing operation of the aircraft under the Minimum Equipment List. The letter of authorization may be obtained by
written request of the airworthiness certificate holder. The Minimum Equipment List and the letter of authorization constitute a supplemental type certificate for the aircraft.
(3) The approved Minimum Equipment List must--
(i) Be prepared in accordance with the limitations specified in paragraph (b) of this section; and
(ii) Provide for the operation of the aircraft with the instruments and equipment in an inoperable condition.
(4) The aircraft records available to the pilot must include an entry describing the inoperable instruments and equipment.
(5) The aircraft is operated under all applicable conditions and limitations contained in the Minimum Equipment List and the letter authorizing the use of the list.
(b) The following instruments and equipment may not be included in a Minimum Equipment List:
(1) Instruments and equipment that are either specifically or otherwise required by the airworthiness requirements under which the aircraft is type certificated and which are essential for safe operations under all operating conditions.
(2) Instruments and equipment required by an airworthiness directive to be in operable condition unless the airworthiness directive provides otherwise.
(3) Instruments and equipment required for specific operations by this part.
(c) A person authorized to use an approved Minimum Equipment List issued for a specific aircraft under subpart K of this part, part 121, 125, or 135 of this chapter must use that Minimum Equipment List to comply with the requirements in this section.
(d) Except for operations conducted in accordance with paragraph (a) or (c) of this section, a person may takeoff an aircraft in operations conducted under this part with inoperative instruments and equipment without an approved Minimum Equipment List provided--
(1) The flight operation is conducted in a--
[(i) Rotorcraft, nonturbine-powered airplane, glider, or lighter-than-air aircraft, powered parachute, or weight-shift-control aircraft, for which a master minimum equipment list has not been developed; or]
(ii) Small rotorcraft, nonturbine-powered small airplane, glider, or lighter-than-air aircraft for which a Master Minimum Equipment List has been developed; and
(2) The inoperative instruments and equipment are not--
(i) Part of the VFR-day type certification instruments and equipment prescribed in the applicable airworthiness regulations under which the aircraft was type certificated;
(ii) Indicated as required on the aircraft's equipment list, or on the Kinds of Operations Equipment List for the kind of flight operation being conducted;
(iii) Required by Sec. 91.205 or any other rule of this part for the specific kind of flight operation being conducted; or
(iv) Required to be operational by an airworthiness directive; and
(3) The inoperative instruments and equipment are--
(i) Removed from the aircraft, the cockpit control placarded, and the maintenance recorded in accordance with Sec. 43.9 of this chapter; or
(ii) Deactivated and placarded "Inoperative." If deactivation of the inoperative instrument or equipment involves maintenance, it must be accomplished and recorded in accordance with part 43 of this chapter; and
(4) A determination is made by a pilot, who is certificated and appropriately rated under part 61 of this chapter, or by a person, who is certificated and appropriately rated to perform maintenance on the aircraft, that the inoperative instrument or equipment does not constitute a hazard to the aircraft. An aircraft with inoperative instruments or equipment as provided in paragraph (d) of this section is considered to be in a properly altered condition acceptable to the Administrator.
(e) Notwithstanding any other provision of this section, an aircraft with inoperable instruments or equipment may be operated under a special flight permit issued in accordance with Secs. 21.197 and 21.199 of this chapter.

-'duff

 

[twighead]

there is nothing in that reg that is any different than what i said.

things on the "atomatoflames" list (officially "the VFR-day type certification instruments and equipment") are not deferrable.

most other inoperative items can be deferred by placarding them as inop and entering them into the log. this is a generalization for simplicity sake. of course there are other circumstances that apply.

the airplane in question here does not have an MEL so none of those sections apply.

 

[midlifeflyer]

I'm going to disagree, but only a little bit.

things on the "atomatoflames" list (officially "the VFR-day type certification instruments and equipment") are not deferrable.

Yes, the items on the [insert dumb 91.205 acronym here] list are not dfeferable without a MEL, but the "VFR-day type certification instruments and equipment prescribed in the applicable airworthiness regulations under which the aircraft was type certificated;" goes far beyond that list. 91.205 is not a certification regulation. Part 23 and it's CAR predecessor are (for GA pistons anyway). That stall warning in the 172? It's required by Part 23 and it's CAR predecessor.

(See what I mean about the acronym leading you astray)

most other inoperative items can be deferred by placarding them as inop and entering them into the log. this is a generalization for simplicity sake. of course there are other circumstances that apply.

Yes like all equipment required by the certification regulations, that are required by the TCDS, and that are listed as required in the aircraft's equipment list. Not to mention anything that requires some maintenance in order to be considered "deactivated" or "removed." That's far more than the very small list of items that are in 91.205. So, I'll quibble with your use of "most."

the airplane in question here does not have an MEL so none of those sections apply.

Not sure which ones you mean. (a)(b)and (c) are MEL-specific regs. But (d) applies to all aircraft without a MEL.

 

[twighead]

i don't think we're in disagreement here. maybe you are right about the "most" statement. but, if you include all the minor issues like the step to climb into the airplane, the rubber pad that fell off the rudder pedal, radios, nav equipment, etc., then there are probably more things deferrable then not.

as far as the MEL thing is concerned, the guy who posted used the term vfr mel. i was just stating that the required day VFR equip is not an MEL, and i'm sure this cessna does not operate under an MEL. the guy telling me i was wrong highligted a bunch of MEL stuff and i was stating the MEL sections are not applicable in this case.

here is my original post:
Everything on the airplane is required to be working. There are just certain things that can be deferred and some that can't. Eveything on the ATOMATOFLAMES is required equipment that cannot be deferred.

However, this has nothing to do with an MEL (original poster referred to it as an MEL) and I wouldn't refer to it as such on your checkide unless you want a pink slip.

 

[drinkduff77]

You stated that "Everything on the airplane is required to be working", which is not true. I then highlighted the applicable regulation that states which things (VFR day requirements and stuff on the required equipment list) are required to be working when you don't have an MEL and what you have to do to be legal to fly it (placard and deactivate, blah blah blah). I highlighted everything BUT the MEL stuff, where you got that I hightlight "a bunch of MEL stuff", I'm not sure.

Maybe it's your use of the word "deferred" in your original post that threw me but I've usually only used that in association with an MEL. Not saying your wrong in using it, I just misunderstood.

I think we all agree in the original poster's misuse of the term "VFR MEL" though.

-'duff

 

[midlifeflyer]

i don't think we're in disagreement here.

That's why I said

I'm going to disagree, but only a little bit.

 

[twighead]

You stated that "Everything on the airplane is required to be working", which is not true. I then highlighted the applicable regulation that states which things (VFR day requirements and stuff on the required equipment list) are required to be working when you don't have an MEL and what you have to do to be legal to fly it (placard and deactivate, blah blah blah). I highlighted everything BUT the MEL stuff, where you got that I hightlight "a bunch of MEL stuff", I'm not sure.

Maybe it's your use of the word "deferred" in your original post that threw me but I've usually only used that in association with an MEL. Not saying your wrong in using it, I just misunderstood.

I think we all agree in the original poster's misuse of the term "VFR MEL" though.

-'duff

i should have elaborated a little but i figured it was implied. what i meant is that everything is required to be working, but if something is not working the flight can be continued depending on the which equipment is inop and if the proper mx procedure is followed.

sort of the same wording as the answer to the question- when are you supposed to file an alternate when flying IFR? A: always . . except when the weather is yada, yada, yada.

. . . and sorry, you were right. there were not a lot of MEL areas highlighted.